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Kiri



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 471
Location: Latvia/Italy

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you SO much, Eldin!
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eldin raigmore
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Joined: 03 May 2007
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Location: SouthEast Michigan

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
Thank you SO much, Eldin!

You're quite welcome! I hope it helps.

I'm glad I found (or, given my memory, maybe re-found) Gary Shannon's 218-sentence "syntax test". I should use it myself.

Keep us apprized on your progress; and mention any difficulties if you find any.
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Kiri



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 471
Location: Latvia/Italy

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still looking for a somewhat intuitive way to write the sounds /Q Q: & &: 9 9:/
Now I have <ao āo ae āe oe ōe> but I'm not really happy with the digraphs, especially for the long versions. Maybe diacritics would be better. Does anyone have any ideas that could be of help?


Last edited by Kiri on Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:43 am; edited 2 times in total
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Tolkien_Freak



Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 1231
Location: in front of my computer. always.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(You should disable HTML in your post so <> shows up right ^_^)

You could do < ő őő> or something. It'd be better if there was a o-double-grave symbol you could use in place of , but I don't know if that exists.
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Kiri



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 471
Location: Latvia/Italy

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is so frustrating! There are never enough diacritics for conlangers Very Happy
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Tolkien_Freak



Joined: 26 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So much truth.
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Kiri



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 471
Location: Latvia/Italy

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

T_F wrote:
Kiri wrote:
When I noticed that there is only one tone, I thought of this pattern:
is like a falling tone, and the vowel seems a little bit longer than short Very Happy
ā is the long vowel, but it is also a "regular" tone, as in, it's neither falling nor rising
was initially a rising tone, but somewhat evolved into an accent.

Does it seem logical?


I would expect rather a combination of three tones (low, mid and high or falling, flat and rising) and two lengths into six possible categories as the logical system here. Generally tone and length are not mutually exclusive on a phoneme; and stress (accent) and tone are generally mutually exclusive in a whole language (i.e. tonal langs don't have stress and langs with stress don't have tone).


Back in 2010 (OMG, it's so long already!) we had some discussion about tones and stuff. Now, two years have passed and I have gained knowledge, and I can finally explain to you what it is that I have in this language.

Is any of you familiar with Lithuanian? (not to confuse with Latvian, my mothertongue). It is a pitch-accent language which basically means that it uses a combination of pitch and accent (much like Latvian, which is what I was trying to explain earlier in this thread).
Latvian has two "pitches" on stressed vowels - drawn intonation and falling intonation
Lithuanian has three "pitches" - rising intonation and falling intonation (on long vowels and dipthongs), and short stressed vowels (no intonation)

Tashayan effectively has a combination of the two:
Drawn intonation (ā)
Falling intonation ()
Stressed short vowels with no intonation ()

Is it more clear now?
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eldin raigmore
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Joined: 03 May 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(1a) What, precisely, is the formal definition of "a pitch-accent language"?

(1b) Is there only one formal definition, or do "professional linguists" disagree on the meaning of that term?

(1c) I thought a "pitch-accent" language was one in which stress was pretty synonymous with pitch.

_______________________________________________________________

(2)
I remember reading about a natlang somewhere that has both weight-sensitive stress and tones.

Level tones can occur on any syllable.

Glide tones (rising and falling) can occur on any heavy syllable (even if it's unstressed) and also on any stressed syllable (even if it's light); but glide tones cannot occur on unstressed light syllables.

Contour tones (peaking (rise-fall) and dipping (fall-rise)) can occur only on stressed heavy syllables.

To put it differently:

Stressed heavy syllables can have any tone.

Stressed light syllables and unstressed heavy syllables cannot have contour tones; but they can have any glide tone and any level tone.

Unstressed light syllables can only have level tones.
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Kiri



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 471
Location: Latvia/Italy

PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem I have with TL right now is the fact that it doesn't really have infinitive on verbs.

When I have a phrase with two verbs (like modals and other stuff), the main verb gets nominalized with the suffix

E.g.
Sōmamb Ďonu ōes.
1Ssee John-ABS BEN
I see John (to my advantage).
vs.
Sōpāoral Ďonūgi mambťo ōes.
1S-be.able JohnGEN seeNOMINAL.ABS BEN
I can see John (to my advantage).

but I can't really find an elegant way to add another verb to the phrase.

Does anyone have an idea how to do this or an example of how other languages do this?

EDIT:
I found a variant in which even two verbs are not possible in the same clause:
Tsāegi Hōgi mambťōgi torf, Alhimāgi omflet Ťepit ent gārbe ik.
give-land-SG.GEN* royalty-SG.GEN seeingSG.GEN about, Alhima-GEN embassador-ERG Chepu-ERG have honorABS BEN
The Alhiman ambassador Chepu has the honor of seeing the Queen of Tashay.

*The name Ts literally means "The Given Land"


Last edited by Kiri on Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Kiri



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Location: Latvia/Italy

PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no one? Sad
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Aert



Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This might not help too much due to the different nature of our conlangs, but what I've done with the oligosynthetic one (still working on a name...) is included several modal verb root/cases, which result in a complex verb (all arguments come after, since it's a VSO lang).

Example:

"I see John (to my advantage)"
see-BEN 1SG.NOM John.ACC

"I can see John (to my advantage)"
POT-see-BEN 1SG.NOM John.ACC

"I can start to speak to John (to my advantage)..."
POT-INCHO-see-BEN 1SG.NOM John.ACC ...

This could be carried quite a ways due to the agglutinative nature of my lang, and I often us an "attributive marker" to link two things that are related in the sentence.

But in your case, it looks like you're using noun incorporation (you have "John.GEN-seeing" vs. "seeing John." If this is so, I'd suggest you check out Mark Baker's work:

Baker, Mark C. (1988) Incorporation: a theory of grammatical function changing. Chicago:. University of Chicago Press
Baker, Mark C. (1996). The Polysynthesis Parameter. New York [etc.]: Oxford University Press.

He's been highly recommended to me when I came to my prof with a question about incorporation, and you should find tons of great examples there.

Unfortunately I haven't seriously read his work, but if you want to use multiple verbs in a sentence via noun incorporation, you could sequentially incorporate the objects, such that you get:

1S-be.able John-GEN ask-NOMINAL.ABS BEN for dinner-GEN pay-NOMINAL.ABS
"I can ask John (to my advantage) to pay for dinner"

Or you could also consider a structure such that every new sentence-level projection (CP, in syntax, where you need to express time or infinitive marking on the verb), you can go back to the standard sentence, such that you get:

[Subject Mod-Verb Obj Verb2-NOM (Goal)](n)
(the (n) should be subscript: you can repeat this structure recursively for a simple/elegant way of extending the sentence paradigm you already have in place)


Hope this helps some!
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
no one? Sad

Sorry, I haven't been on since Sept. 1st, so I didn't catch your last post before now.
Having read it I still don't know what to reply. I'm not quite sure I see your problem.
Aert's answer looks good IMO; in fact I'm jealous I didn't say something like that first.
But right now I can't think of anything to add.

Except; Keep up the good work! and, Don't get discouraged!
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Kiri



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
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Location: Latvia/Italy

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you both! Smile

I now have something to think about Smile
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