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Kiri



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 471
Location: Latvia/Italy

PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for trying to help me, but you think too higly of me, since English is the only foreign language I could TRY understanding something this specific.
The main problem is that the Latvian way of explaining things is waaay different than the one you guys are used to.

The thing you call subject (or, I've seen also "agent") is what we call "Teikuma priekšmets" (the object of the sentence).
The verb that corresponds to the subject and object is called "izteicējs" - and I have no idea how to translate it properly. The thing is things that go like "is who" and "is what" can also form the "izteicējs"
The thing you call object (or, I've also seen "patient") doesn't exist as a term in Latvian. Instead we use "papildinātājs", which my dictionary indeed translates as "object", but things like "whose", "for who", "where", "to do what", "with what", "about what", "of what", "at what" etc. also go in this group. So it's not only object, but it is a lot of other things.
Then we have "apzīmētājs" which basically tells us about the quality of something - "what kind", "which" and "how many" are the usual questions it answers to.
And last, but not least we have "apstāklis" which tells about the conditions of whatever happens. "when", "where", "how" etc.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you don't understand one word, skip to the next.
If that doesn't work, and you still don't understand one sentence, skip to the next.
If that still doesn't work, and you still don't understand one paragraph, skip to the next.
And so on.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, to start with:
"Subject" and "Agent" are two different things.

"Agent" is the entity that controls, or performs, or effects, or instigates, the activity, event, process, situation, state, or whatever that the clause talks about.
See http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsAgentAsASemanticRole.htm;
also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_%28grammar%29.

"Agent", therefore, is a semantic label, not a syntactic one.
"Agent" belongs to a set of things called, variously, by one of the following terms:
"case role"
"deep case"
"semantic role"
"thematic role"
"theta role".

Since, in every language, it's possible to say that someone does something, every language has Agents.

"Subject", on the other hand, is a Grammatical Function, or Grammatical Relation, or Syntactic Function, or Syntactic Relation.

Since Aristotle, some grammarians have analyzed (most of) some languages' clauses as consisting of a Subject and a Predicate.

http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsASubject.htm isn't very useful.
But http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsAGrammaticalRelation.htm is useful.
And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject_%28grammar%29 is very useful.
My favorite, however, is http://wiki.penguindeskjob.com/Grammatical_relations.

Some grammarians think every language has at least one grammatical relation, namely Subject. Others think there may be at least one language with no grammatical relations whatsoever; and that the whole idea of grammatical relations may be of limited use in most languages. There are also opinions in-between those.

If a language has more than one grammatical relation, the main one is called "Subject" and all the others are called "Object". (Maybe there's only one other; in which case there's only one "Object".)

For languages with three or more grammatical relations, there are two or more Objects; the most important one is called either "Primary Object" or "Direct Object", and all other objects are called either "Secondary Object" or "Indirect Object".

"Subjects" are also different from "Topics". "Topic" is a pragmatic term, while "Subject" is a syntactic term.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you look at the Proto-Role Properties or Macro-Role Properties for Proto-Agents and Proto-Patients, you'll see that, in any main clause, especially if isolated from other discourse, if one participant has more Proto-Agent Properties than any other, and another participant has more Proto-Patient Properties than any other, then the former will be cast as Agent and the latter as Patient.

Dixon and others have suggested that in most languages most clauses' core participants belong to one of the following semantic macro-roles;
S both most agent-like and most patient-like
A most agent-like but not most patient-like
U most patient-like but not most agent-like
E has a greater sum of agent-like and patient-like properties than any other participant with the possible exceptions of the S and/or the A and/or the U.

And, they say, most clauses' set of core participants are one of the following sets:
S
A U
S E
A U E

A clause with just one core argument is monovalent; it's only participant has to be its S.

A clause with an A and a U is bivalent and is likely to be semantically transitive and also morphosyntactically transitive.

A clause with an S and an E is bivalent because it has two core arguments; but it's probably not semantically transitive because it doesn't have a distinct agent acting on a distinct patient. It might be reasonable to think of it (semantically, at least) as an intransitive clause with two core arguments, namely a Subject and an Indirect Object. In some languages the morphosyntax of some such clauses is just that; in other languages, the clause will be morphosyntacically presented as if it were transitive.

A clause with an A and a U and an E is trivalent; it has two objects and is ditransitive.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every language has both one-participant clauses (monovalent clauses) and two-participant clauses (bivalent clauses). Every language also has both intransitive clauses and transitive clauses.

Most languages have ditransitive clauses, but for most such languages the ditransitive verbs are a minority compared to the monotransitive and intransitive verbs.

If you want to see what Transitivity is, check out Hopper and Thompson.

A high-school definition of a prototypical semantically-transitive clause would be: It has an agent which acts willfully and directly upon a patient, and the patient is thereby physically and visibly affected.

In languages in which Agents are usually Subjects and vice-versa, we'd probably get told in grammar school, "A transitive sentence is one that has a subject and a direct object".

See
http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsTransitivity.htm
http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsATransitiveVerb.htm
http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsIntransitivity.htm

and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitivity_%28grammatical_category%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitive_verb
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intransitive_verb

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's a theory that intransitive verbs and clauses come in two kinds; the unaccusative ones and the unergative ones.

See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unaccusative_verb
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unergative_verb.

Follow up on one of their references, too, though; sometimes those are more reliable than the Wikipedia article itself.

------------------------

I hope at least some of that helps at least some.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
The thing you call subject ... is what we call "Teikuma priekšmets" (the object of the sentence).
Google's Babelfish tranlates it as "the subject of the sentence".

Kiri wrote:
The verb that corresponds to the subject and object is called "izteicējs" - and I have no idea how to translate it properly. The thing is things that go like "is who" and "is what" can also form the "izteicējs"
"Predicate".
Copular clauses may exist even in languages that don't have a copula (like "is"); one kind of copular clause is the kind that says one noun-phrase designates something that could also be designated by a different noun-phrase, like "Obama is President". The noun-phrase in the predicate is called, guess what?, a "predicate nominal". Another kind of copular clause says that a given adjective applies to a particular noun-phrase, like "President Obama is male".

Kiri wrote:
The thing you call object (or, I've also seen "patient")
"Patient" and "Object" are not the same thing; "Patient" is the participant affected by the action, "Object" is the secondary grammatical-relation. Consider Active Voice and Passive Voice; Active Voice is the voice in which the Agent is the Subject, Passive Voice is the voice in which the Patient is the Subject.

Kiri wrote:
doesn't exist as a term in Latvian. Instead we use "papildinātājs", which my dictionary indeed translates as "object", but things like "whose", "for who", "where", "to do what", "with what", "about what", "of what", "at what" etc. also go in this group. So it's not only object, but it is a lot of other things.
I get "object"; I also get "adder"! Surprised Shocked Confused
At any rate, verbs aren't the only kind of words that can take objects; so can adpositions. Most of your other examples would be called objects of prepositions in English. For all I know in Latvian "whose" and "where" and "to do what" are expressed via adpositions (prepositions or postpositions, probably) also.

Kiri wrote:
Then we have "apzīmētājs" which basically tells us about the quality of something - "what kind", "which" and "how many" are the usual questions it answers to.
"Adjective", I'm guessing. (Probably also "determiner", including "demonstrative" and "article".)
I get "designator", "attribute", and "adjunct"; to me "attribute" means "adjective" and "designator" means "determiner".
I could be wrong.

Kiri wrote:
And last, but not least we have "apstāklis" which tells about the conditions of whatever happens. "when", "where", "how" etc.
I get "circumstance", "adverbial modifier", "adjunct", and "case".
I'd think it's probably best called "adverb", so long as it refers to just one word; though maybe it also covers Latvian's adpositions (if you have any?).
If it refers to a phrase or clause, "adjunct" and "adverbial" mean about the same thing, at least in English.
Most English prepositional phrases, like most cases of nouns in languages with a lot of cases, and like most adpositional phrases in languages with more than one adposition, are used adverbially.

--------------------------------------------

Does any of that help?
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Kiri



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Location: Latvia/Italy

PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

O, Eldin, I own you eternally!
Ak, Eldin, es esmu tev mūžīgs parādnieks!
Wink
Thank you SO much!
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's more from Google Translate that might help (I have no idea how correct these are):
vowel :---: patskanis
consonant :---: līdzskanis
voiced :---: balsīgs
unvoiced :---: neskanīgs
unvoiced :---: neizteikts
mute :---: mēms
mute :---: kluss
mute :---: nerunīgs
breathy voice :---: ņurdošs
creaky voice :---: čīkstošs
murmured :---: klusi
whispered :---: čukstēja
egressive :---: ekspiratorisks
lung :---: plaušu
glottis :---: balss sprauga
glottal :---: balss sprauga
epiglottis :---: uzgāmuris
larynx :---: balsene
vocal chords :---: balss saites
vocal folds :---: vokāls krokās
pharynx :---: rīkles
widened throat :---: palielinājušās kakls
tongue root :---: mēles sakne
retracted tongue root :---: ievilkts mēles sakne
relaxed tongue root :---: atvieglinātas mēles sakne
uvula :---: ūka
velum :---: mīkstās aukslējas
palate :---: aukslējas
alveolus :---: šūna
dental :---: zobu
lip :---: lūpa
labial :---: lūpu
lateral :---: sānu
apex :---: virsotne
tip of the tongue :---: galu mēles
blade of the tongue :---: asmens mēles
dorsal :---: muguras
cerebral :---: smadzeņu
coronal :---: vainags
stop :---: apturēt
plosive :---: eksplozīvs slēdzenis
tap :---: krāns
flap :---: atloks
fricative :---: berzenis
friction :---: berze
turbulent :---: trauksmains
sibilant :---: svelpenis
rounded :---: noapaļota
unrounded :---: nenoapaļota
high :---: augsts
close :---: aizvērt
low :---: zems
open :---: atvērt
mid :---: vidus
near-high :---: pie augstas
near-close :---: gandrīz gandrīz (?)
lowered high :---: pazemināt augstu
near-low :---: gandrīz zems
near-open :---: pie atvērta
raised low :---: izvirzīts zems
front :---: priekš
front :---: priekšējais
back :---: atpakaļējais (?)
central :---: galvenais
oral :---: iekšķīgai
resonant :---: rezonējošs
sonorant :---: Skanenis
sonority :---: skanīgums
obstruent :---: Troksnenis
short :---: īss
long :---: garš
diphthong :---: divskanis
tense :---: saspringts
lax :---: gurdens

--------------------------------

syllable :---: zilbe
onset :---: sākums
rime :---: sarma
rhyme :---: dzeja
nucleus :---: kodols
cluster :---: kopa
heavy :---: smags
light :---: viegls
light :---: gaišs
stressed :---: uzsvēra,
unstressed :---: neuzsvērts
unstressed :---: neakcentēts
pitch :---: piķis
tone :---: tonis
tone :---: tonuss
register :---: reģistrs (?)
glide :---: planēšana (?)
rise :---: celties
fall :---: krist
simple contour tone :---: vienkāršu kontūru tonis
peak :---: maksimālā
peak :---: smaile
peak :---: virsotne
peaking tone :---: sasniedzot augstāko tonis
rise-fall :---: pieaugums-fall
dip :---: iemērkšana
dipping :---: liešana tonis
fall-rise :---: kritums pieaug
complex contour tone :---: komplekss kontūras toni ( Surprised now, there's a surprise! Wink )
peak-dip :---: pilnas iemērkšana
dip-peak :---: iemērkšana maksimālā

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

prefix :---: priedēklis
suffix :---: piedēklis
transfix :---: caururbt
affix :---: pielikums
affix :---: papildinājums
affix :---: afikss
ablaut :---: patskaņu mija
mutation :---: mutācija
inflect :---: liekt
inflect :---: locīt
inflection :---: lēciena
inflexion :---: saliekšana
inflexion :---: fleksija
derive :---: atvasināt
derived :---: iegūti
derivation :---: atvasināšana
scope :---: vēriens (?)
compound word :---: saliktais vārds
adjective :---: īpašības vārds
adverb :---: apstākļa vārds
conjunction :---: kopā
interjection :---: starpsauciens
noun :---: lietvārds
preposition :---: prievārds
pronoun :---: vietniekvārds
verb :---: darbības vārds
grammatical case :---: gramatisko lieta
gender :---: dzimums
masculine :---: vīrieša
feminine :---: sieviešu
neuter :---: neitrāls
common :---: kopīgs
animate :---: dzīva
inanimate :---: nedzīvs
human :---: mirstīgais
non-human :---: nav cilvēka
living :---: dzīves
grammatical number :---: gramatisko numurs
singular :---: vienskaitlis
plural :---: daudzskaitlis
dual :---: dubultā
referential :---: godbijīgs
specific :---: īpašas
degree of comparison :---: pakāpes salīdzinājums
positive :---: pozitīvs
comparative :---: salīdzinošās
superlative :---: visaugstākais
inclusive :---: ieskaitot
exclusive :---: ekskluzīvas
grammatical person :---: gramatisko persona
speaker :---: (6 translations)
first person :---: Pirmā persona
addressee :---: adresāts
second person :---: otrā persona
the one who is absent :---: kurš ir klāt
third person :---: trešā persona
indefinite :---: nenoteikts
aspect :---: (9 translations)
lexically inherent aspectual class :--- : lexically raksturīgs aspectual klase
lexically inherent aspectual class :--- : Darbības
mode :---: (6 translations)
mood :---: garastāvoklis
indicative :---: norādošs
subjunctive :---: konjunktīvs
declarative :---: deklaratīvs
interrogative :---: jautājuma
imperative :---: Nenovēršamu
exclamatory :---: izsaukuma
polarity :---: polaritāte
affirmative :---: apstiprinošs
negative :---: noliedzošs
tense :---: saspringts? laiks?
present tense :---: tagadne
past tense :---: pagātnē
future :---: nākotnes
validationality :---: apstiprināšanu
grammatical voice :---: gramatisko balss
active voice :---: darāmā kārta
passive voice :---: ciešamās
middle voice :---: vidū balss
direct voice :---: tiešu balss

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


phrase :---: valoda
clause :---: teikums
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of them are evidentially complete rubbish, but some are really useful, thanks, Eldin Smile
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's some new stuff!



Note: Please, don't mind the page numbers in brackets - they're for personal use Very Happy
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
Here's some new stuff!
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j84/hentaidemon/untitled.jpg
Note: Please, don't mind the page numbers in brackets - they're for personal use.


But, what's "perfect continuous"?
How can anything be both "perfect" and "continuous" at the same time?
Can you give us an example of three sentences whose only difference is one is Perfect, one is Continuous, and one is Perfect Continuous, and explain when (i.e. under what circumstances or in which situations) you'd say each rather than either of the others?
Can you tell use what "Perfect Continuous" means and why and how it's different from "Perfect" and from "Continuous"?

Thanks.
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was under the impression, that there is such a thing in English, but maybe I'm mixing things up. Again.

Present Continuous:
Right now I am going to the Temple.
Oi sōrjćmuv Fāvjamō ďāo.
now I-go-CONT god-house to.

Present Perfect:
I have gone to the Temple.
Sōënt Fāvjamō ďāo rjćmei.
I-have god-house to go-SUF.

Present Perfect Continous:
I've been going to the Temple.
Sōënt Fāvjamō ďāo rjćmuvei.
I-have god-house to go-CONT-SUF

The Tashayan distinguishment between Perfect and Perfect Continuous is a little bit unclear to me still, but there is a variant, where perfect is used for a habit (up until the point of refference), but perfect continuous is about a one-time event or something.
So tell me, O Eldin, am I failing miserably to notice something essential... again? Very Happy
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
I was under the impression, that there is such a thing in English, but maybe I'm mixing things up. Again.

Present Continuous:
Right now I am going to the Temple.
Oi sōrjćmuv Fāvjamō ďāo.
now I-go-CONT god-house to.

Present Perfect:
I have gone to the Temple.
Sōënt Fāvjamō ďāo rjćmei.
I-have god-house to go-SUF.

Present Perfect Continous:
I've been going to the Temple.
Sōënt Fāvjamō ďāo rjćmuvei.
I-have god-house to go-CONT-SUF

The Tashayan distinguishment between Perfect and Perfect Continuous is a little bit unclear to me still, but there is a variant, where perfect is used for a habit (up until the point of refference), but perfect continuous is about a one-time event or something.
So tell me, O Eldin, am I failing miserably to notice something essential... again? :D


I'm not sure I follow why all your examples are Perfect Continuous, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen in your 'lang, nor that it doesn't happen in English.

This weekend I ate dinner out with my ex-wife and our daughter, to celebrate the daughter's half-As-and-half-Bs report-card.

I asked my ex to give an example of a "Perfect Continuous" clause, and she said:
"If I die tomorrow, I will have eaten or drunk something every day of my life".

I tried to improve that, something like
"If I die right now I'll have kept breathing for 58 years"
or
"If I die right now my blood will have been circulating for 58 years"
or something.

I agreed that could be Perfect Continuous; but I had no idea whether it was what you meant by it.
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of those examples seem like 'habitual' is a better word than 'continuous' (especially for Kiri's, which wasn't future). From the English translation, Kiri's sounds more like 'currently ongoing habitual action' (maybe implying 'recently begun'), rather than whatever 'perfect continuous' is.
(Eldin's are confusing since they're all future perfect - something like 'habitual action that will have just ended at the point-of-reference'.)

I wouldn't think anything like 'perfect continuous' would be possible, since 'perfect' means 'finished action' and 'continuous' means 'currently ongoing action', and action can't both be finished and still happening. Seems to me like the English translation is a mixture of the English perfect and continuous forms with a meaning that you wouldn't be able to figure out if you hadn't seen such a construction before.
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, you are seriously confusing me into thinking that I don't really know a language I've thus far believed I know, because you are native English speakers, and here I am, some brat from Baltics, using a concept, which I see as an English basic, but which seems alien to you guys. It is really weird, for I have no intention to argue with natives.

This is what the almighty internet has to say:
http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/presentperfectcontinuous.html
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
Guys, you are seriously confusing me into thinking that I don't really know a language I've thus far believed I know, because you are native English speakers, and here I am, some brat from Baltics, using a concept, which I see as an English basic, but which seems alien to you guys. It is really weird, for I have no intention to argue with natives.

Sorry! This is what comes of talking to linguists, who actively analyze their native language while speaking it ^_^
I don't think it's that it's alien to us, it's just we're trying to figure out what we're actually meaning to say while we're using it (which to me seems different from whatever meaning you would get from the construction itself). Don't worry, the construction is perfectly valid and means exactly what you think it means.

Quote:
This is what the almighty internet has to say:
http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/presentperfectcontinuous.html

The information on that page is pretty much correct, I just think the naming is a bit off. It kind of makes sense in the context of English (since the construction really is perfect + continuous), but if your construction isn't the same I would call it something that indicates 'ongoing/habitual action begun in the past and continuing (at least) until now'. (Eldin would probably be better at naming it than me ^_^)
It's almost a weird kind of imperfect....

It strikes me as funny how much 'learn English' material out there is in English. The phrase 'free English lessons' seems just as pointless as 「無料の日本語のレッソン」.
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:

Sorry! This is what comes of talking to linguists, who actively analyze their native language while speaking it ^_^
I don't think it's that it's alien to us, it's just we're trying to figure out what we're actually meaning to say while we're using it (which to me seems different from whatever meaning you would get from the construction itself). Don't worry, the construction is perfectly valid and means exactly what you think it means.


Phew! I was already starting to fear! Very Happy

Quote:

The information on that page is pretty much correct, I just think the naming is a bit off. It kind of makes sense in the context of English (since the construction really is perfect + continuous), but if your construction isn't the same I would call it something that indicates 'ongoing/habitual action begun in the past and continuing (at least) until now'. (Eldin would probably be better at naming it than me ^_^)
It's almost a weird kind of imperfect....


Yes, I guess it would make more sence to use different names, like, occasional and habitual or something along the lines. (O Eldin, the Almighty Namer?) Well, anyway, a name based on the use would be nice Smile

Quote:

It strikes me as funny how much 'learn English' material out there is in English. The phrase 'free English lessons' seems just as pointless as 「無料の日本語のレッソン」.


You just made my day Smile But you do have a point there Smile
Or it is makes as much sense as "bezmaksas Latviešu valodas stundas", for that matter Wink
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not almighty; I'm just careful about names.
If I'm confused, following my lead is like "the blind leading the blind". (edit: or maybe more like "the blind leading the one-eyed nearsighted with astigmatism". /edit)
Anyway I think T_F was right.

"Perfect", aka "retrospective", is used for an action completed in the past but whose effects are still relevant. Or, "past perfect" is used for actions completed at some time anterior to the past event I'm speaking of, but whose effects were still relevant at that past time of which I'm speaking. And, "future perfect" is used for actions completed at some time anterior to the future event I'm speaking of, but whose effects will still be relevant at that future time of which I'm speaking.

IMO "retrospective" is a mood, in that it indicates the speaker's attitude that the anterior event is still relevant at the time being spoken of. Some grammarians say it's a tense, because anything to do with time, other than stuff that's clearly an aspect, must be a tense. And some say it depends on the type of the language;
* in tense-prominent languages it's a tense, and means a past action whose effects are still relevant in the present;
* in aspect-prominent languages it's an aspect, and means a perfective action with imperfective relevance;
* in mood-prominent languages it's a mood, and means a realis action with irrealis relevance.

Anyway, if the action/event/process was completed, it's probably in a perfective aspect (perhaps the "completive"? or the "terminative"?).

You seem to want to extend the idea of "retrospective" to imperfective aspects, such as continuous, habitual, repetitive, progressive, etc.

I think in English we'd say "perfect progressive", or, folks like me who don't want to use the word "perfect", would say "retrospective progressive".

But your language might not have several imperfective aspects. If it only has one, you should probably call it "imperfective", so what you're talking about would be "retrospective imperfective". But that's a mouthful. "perfect continuous", "perfect habitual", "perfect progressive", or some such might do.

It's just that I still have trouble imagining why it's a useful thing, because the simple present imperfective, or at least, the simultaneous imperfective, would work just fine; because you're talking about an ongoing action/event/process/state/situation that was still relevant at the time of which you are speaking. But if it was ongoing at that time as well, why not just use a simple tense?

Obviously there is an answer. Since languages do have something like "perfect continuous", their speakers must have some use for it. But, how do they tell when to use it, and when to use some simpler "tense" instead?

Is the answer pretty consistent from one language to another? If so, is the answer for your conlang the same? If not, what is the answer for your conlang?
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will get back to you with this, when I have a clear answer Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I've come back to this project (finally). Now it seems to me that all the tense system I intended was way too complicated. I think I will go with just two tenses - past and non-past - and maybe some participles, if necessary Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
So, I've come back to this project (finally). Now it seems to me that all the tense system I intended was way too complicated. I think I will go with just two tenses - past and non-past - and maybe some participles, if necessary :)


OK.
Just let us know, when you've decided, how to say the things in your new system that you were saying in your old system; that is, how to communicate those same meanings using utterances that are grammatical in your new system.

(I'm not telling you to hurry up; I'm just asking you to keep us in the loop. Thanks.)
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so this is the much-more-simple version of verbs I now have.



If anyone could provide me with some example sentences to translate, I would greatly appreciate it. Also, I'd like to try out some subclauses, moods and stuff like that...
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
Ok, so this is the much-more-simple version of verbs I now have.


Cool! Cool

Kiri wrote:
If anyone could provide me with some example sentences to translate, I would greatly appreciate it.


(1) http://www.fiziwig.com/conlang/syntax_tests.html is a list of just 218 sentences. It definitely includes complex sentences, subordinated clauses, irrealis moods, etc.

(2) Try Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. There's a Latvian version.
Quote:
Visi cilvčki piedzimst brěvi un vienlědzěgi savâ pařcieđâ un tiesěbâs. Viđi ir apveltěti ar saprâtu un sirdsapziđu, un viđiem jâizturas citam pret citu brâlěbas garâ.


(3) Try the Tower of Babel story, Genesis 11:1-9.

(4) Try the first several verses of Chapter 1 of the Gospel According to St. John. At least the first 8 verses, no more than the first 18. Or less, or more, if you feel like it.
Here's a Latvian translation, so they say.

(5)This poem:
Quote:
THE WINDMILL

Aloft here in my tower,
With my granite jaws I devour
The maize, the wheat, and the rye.
My master, the miller, stands.
And feeds me with his hands.



(6) Try as many as you can of the Graded Sentences for Analysis.
Go through http://www.potterpcs.net/gsfa/.
Or go through http://www.fiziwig.com/conlang/.
If that doesn't work, you might try unzipping this zip file. I think it's probably not the same thing. I'm not sure it's as good.
Try
http://www.fiziwig.com/conlang/gsfa_1.txt
http://www.fiziwig.com/conlang/gsfa_2.txt
http://www.fiziwig.com/conlang/gsfa_3.txt

(7) http://www.fiziwig.com/conlang/resources/mcguffey_one.html McGuffey's First Reader, Illustrated.

(8 ) http://www.fiziwig.com/conlang/mcguffey_1.txt


Quote:
Also, I'd like to try out some subclauses, moods and stuff like that...


Go for http://www.fiziwig.com/conlang/syntax_tests.html first.

Then http://www.fiziwig.com/conlang/gsfa_4.txt first complex sentences in GSfA): and http://www.fiziwig.com/conlang/gsfa_5.txt (yet more complex sentences).

Moods don't come up much in the first five sections of GSfA. There are a few imperatives, and perhaps one might consider some of the subordinated clauses to be "subjunctive" (but I doubt that). But at any rate there don't appear to be any irrealis sentences, or at least they aren't obvious. Probably they are in later sections.

You could get the book itself: http://www.kelmscottbookshop.com/store/index14.htm may have it.
Look for http://www.kelmscottbookshop.com/store/13054.htm; that might be it.
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