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langover94
Joined: 21 Aug 2007 Posts: 509 Location: USA
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:57 am Post subject: Insertion of apostraphies |
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I was thinking about inserting apostraphies into my conlangs spoken words. For instance:
It is not there.
Maška quo iamo dondoa
That would become
Maška qu'iamo dondoa
This would only be for spoken words, all written text should be written without apostraphies.
Good Idea? Questions, comments, criticism? I've been contemplating this for a long time, so I would love to know if you guys think that it would be good. _________________ Join us at: The Renewed Spirits Forum!
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Dhanus Admin
Joined: 06 Jul 2007 Posts: 192
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:43 am Post subject: |
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I think it works okay...like French, Je habite---> J'habite, etc. |
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StrangeMagic Admin
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Posts: 640
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:47 am Post subject: |
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Yeh, I agree that it may be easier as there are quite a few vowels strung together. I'd say go for it!
(In my conlang, the apostrophes are used only to separate two vowels which are the same, so it becomes more of a glottal stop. There are no diphthongs either so a break is always good! LOL) |
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langover94
Joined: 21 Aug 2007 Posts: 509 Location: USA
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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StrangeMagic wrote: | Yeh, I agree that it may be easier as there are quite a few vowels strung together. I'd say go for it!
(In my conlang, the apostrophes are used only to separate two vowels which are the same, so it becomes more of a glottal stop. There are no diphthongs either so a break is always good! LOL) |
Thank you!
I also use apostraphies to create a glottal stop when it separates the same vowel. Like the word
Darkness
Fuana'ago
In that word the apostraphy is a glottal stop. _________________ Join us at: The Renewed Spirits Forum!
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Aeetlrcreejl
Joined: 08 Jun 2007 Posts: 839 Location: Over yonder
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: Insertion of apostraphies |
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langover94 wrote: |
Maška quo iamo dondoa
That would become
Maška qu'iamo dondoa
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What about:
Mašk'u'iam' dondoa _________________ Iwocwá ĵọṭăsák.
/iwotSwa_H d`Z`Ot`~asa_Hk/
[iocwa_H d`Z`Ot`_h~a_Hk] |
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langover94
Joined: 21 Aug 2007 Posts: 509 Location: USA
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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It could work, but I dont necessarily like how the 'm' and the 'd' are right next to each other... It makes it hard to talk really fast. _________________ Join us at: The Renewed Spirits Forum!
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Aeetlrcreejl
Joined: 08 Jun 2007 Posts: 839 Location: Over yonder
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:14 am Post subject: Re: Insertion of apostraphies |
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What about:
Mašk'u'iam'ondo'? _________________ Iwocwá ĵọṭăsák.
/iwotSwa_H d`Z`Ot`~asa_Hk/
[iocwa_H d`Z`Ot`_h~a_Hk] |
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langover94
Joined: 21 Aug 2007 Posts: 509 Location: USA
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:58 am Post subject: |
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That could work too.
As long as it alows both fast and slow speaking, it would work. Also, the phonology must be plausible. _________________ Join us at: The Renewed Spirits Forum!
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eldin raigmore Admin
Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 1621 Location: SouthEast Michigan
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Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:59 am Post subject: |
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(1) It's spelled "apostrophe".
(2) Make really sure you have a really good reason to insert each particular apostrophe.
(3) If your apostrophe means "glottal stop" don't let it mean anything else.
If your apostrophe means "checked consonant" or "ejective consonant" don't let it mean anything else.
If your apostrophe means "sounds left out" (as in fo'c's'le for forecastle) don't let it mean anything else.
Pick one meaning and stick to it.
(4) Since there're IPA symbols for glottal, epiglottal, and pharyngeal consonants, it may be best not to use apostrophes for these; maybe you should use it for checked or ejective sounds only. |
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langover94
Joined: 21 Aug 2007 Posts: 509 Location: USA
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Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:24 am Post subject: |
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1) Oops.
2) Ok.
3) I think that the apostraphes should be for leaving sounds out. Sort of like how "it's" is actually "it is" except the "i" in is is not pronounced. Maybe if there's double vowels they should just be long vowel sounds. _________________ Join us at: The Renewed Spirits Forum!
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Aeetlrcreejl
Joined: 08 Jun 2007 Posts: 839 Location: Over yonder
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Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:15 am Post subject: |
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I use apo'phes in Neiriko for glo'al stops. _________________ Iwocwá ĵọṭăsák.
/iwotSwa_H d`Z`Ot`~asa_Hk/
[iocwa_H d`Z`Ot`_h~a_Hk] |
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eldin raigmore Admin
Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 1621 Location: SouthEast Michigan
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Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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There are many romanizations, including "romanizations" of dialects of English, in which glottal stops are indicated by apostrophes.
So if you do that you won't be alone at all.
But I think this is both a result of, and a source of, confusion.
For instance, the people who write < ' > instead of < t > in words where Cockneys (and some others) use [ ? ] as an allophone of /t/, seem to think the dialect-speakers are "leaving out" the < t >. Well, they aren't; they're pronouncing it [ ? ], just moving the point-of-articulation from alveolar to glottal (under certain circumstances). Then, readers who read this might also pick up the mistaken notion that the dialect-speakers are "leaving out" this sound, rather than pronouncing it as an unvoiced glottal stop/plosive instead of an unvoiced alveolar stop/plosive.
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If you use apostrophes in your conlang, whether in its own orthography or in your romanization of it, you should be braced and prepared to be laughed at. Over-use of apostrophes (in particular) is a hallmark of the typical "newbie"l conlang. To a less-deprecated degree, so is the over-use of diacritical marks in general.
By "prepared", I mean, somewhere easy to find and hard to miss, you should explain explicitly (in something from a paragraph to a page) your exact system for using apostrophes. It should be linked to if possible, otherwise referred to, every now and again in any lengthy-enough document in which you use enough apostrophes. (Then when someone "laughs" at you for "over"-using them, you can politely point to it and say "Did you not see this?", meanwhile privately laughing at them.)
By "braced", I mean, don't be offended or insulted or embarrassed by anyone who "laughs" at it. And if someone has read your explanation and sincerely questions whether some of your examples jibe well with your explanation, assume their question is sincere and deserves an answer; those people aren't "laughing" at you.
See for instance this.
Also this. |
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langover94
Joined: 21 Aug 2007 Posts: 509 Location: USA
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Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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Like I said, the written form of a sentence should be written out completely, without apostraphes. The emission of phonemes is completely up to the user, depending on the length and speed of speach. _________________ Join us at: The Renewed Spirits Forum!
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eldin raigmore Admin
Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 1621 Location: SouthEast Michigan
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Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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Right; I understand that you would write apostrophes only to show how a speaker pronounces something, not to show how it's correctly spelled.
The "o" in "apostrophe" is an "o", not an "a"
In some related words it may sometimes be an "e"; consider "boustrophedon" vs "boustrephedon", both acceptable for "as the ox (bous) turns". Or consider streptococcus, streptomycin, streptoneura, where an o would be wrong.
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stroph- or stropho- combining form Gk, fr. strephein to twist turn : twisting : turning
apo- or ap- or aph- prefix apo- fr. ME, fr. MF L MF, fr. L, fr. Gk, fr. apo ap- fr. Gk, fr. apo aph- fr. LL, fr. Gk, fr. apo 1 : away from : off apastron aphelion 2 : detached : separate apocarpous 3 : formed from : related to in names of chemical compounds apocodeine apo- before consonants other than h and sometimes ap- before vowels and aph- before h which is not repeated but frequently apo- even before h or a vowel
Word: apostrophe
1. apos.tro.phe \*-'pa:s-tre-(.)fe-\ \.ap-*-'stra:f-ik\ n [L, fr. Gk
apostrophe-, lit., act of turning away, fr. apostrephein] to turn away, fr.
apo- + strephein to turn : the addressing of a usu. absent person or a usu.
personified thing rheto rically - ap.os.troph.ic aj
2. apostrophe n [MF & LL; MF, fr. LL apostrophus, fr. Gk apostrophos, fr.
apostr]ophos turned away, fr. apostrephein : a mark ' or ' used to indicate
omission of letters or figures, the posse ssive case, or the plural of
letters or figures - apostrophic aj
Word: apostrophize
apos.tro.phize \*-'pa:s-tr*-.fi-z\ vt : to address by or in apostrophe to
make use of apostrophe
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Did you mean "omission", an act of putting by?
Or did you mean "emission", an act of putting out?
To "omit" is to leave out.
To "emit" is to put out.
You could have meant either one.
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omit
One entry found.
omit
Main Entry: omit
Pronunciation: \ō-ˈmit, ə-\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): omit·ted; omit·ting
Etymology: Middle English omitten, from Latin omittere, from ob- toward + mittere to let go, send — more at ob-
Date: 15th century
1: to leave out or leave unmentioned <omits one important detail>
2: to leave undone : fail
3obsolete : disregard
4obsolete : give up
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emit
One entry found.
emit
Main Entry: emit
Pronunciation: \ē-ˈmit\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): emit·ted; emit·ting
Etymology: Latin emittere to send out, from e- + mittere to send
Date: 1598
1 a: to throw or give off or out (as light or heat) b: to send out : eject
2 a: to issue with authority; especially : to put (as money) into circulation bobsolete : publish
3: to give utterance or voice to <emitted a groan>
— emit·ter noun |
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langover94
Joined: 21 Aug 2007 Posts: 509 Location: USA
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:45 am Post subject: |
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Eldin I think that you should be my English teacher. _________________ Join us at: The Renewed Spirits Forum!
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Aeetlrcreejl
Joined: 08 Jun 2007 Posts: 839 Location: Over yonder
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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That''s why Eldin rocks. _________________ Iwocwá ĵọṭăsák.
/iwotSwa_H d`Z`Ot`~asa_Hk/
[iocwa_H d`Z`Ot`_h~a_Hk] |
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isepiki
Joined: 03 Jan 2008 Posts: 37
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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And he says he's not an expert... _________________
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StrangeMagic Admin
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Posts: 640
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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isepiki wrote: | And he says he's not an expert... |
Haha, yeh. I would call him an expert. |
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isepiki
Joined: 03 Jan 2008 Posts: 37
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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He IS an expert _________________
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Aeetlrcreejl
Joined: 08 Jun 2007 Posts: 839 Location: Over yonder
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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If he's an expert, what does that make the rest of us? _________________ Iwocwá ĵọṭăsák.
/iwotSwa_H d`Z`Ot`~asa_Hk/
[iocwa_H d`Z`Ot`_h~a_Hk] |
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