Vreleksá

Aert · Joined: 03 Jul 2008 Posts: 354

How does your conlang deal with direct/indirect objects?

StrangeMagic · Admin Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Posts: 640

I would like you to help me.

Twao nal flobé pil romo.

Twao nal flob-é pil rom-o.

You me(DOB) to help-2ndPRS would to like-1stPRS.

You need to find it.

Twao zhil ayerman napé.

Twao zhil ayerman nap-é.

You it(DOB) must to find-2ndPRS.

I need you to find it for me.

Twao zhil as na-em ayerman napé.

Twao zhil as na-em ayerman napé.

You it(DOB) for me(IOB) must to find-2ndPRS.

Hemicomputer · Joined: 04 Feb 2008 Posts: 610 Location: Calgary, Alberta

I would like you to help me:
Tan i ihúac vútíl.
/t{n i iRw{S vutaIl/
tan i ihú(e)-ac vútí-l
me inf help-2 want-1

You have to find it:
Kú is ogenac
/ku is ONEn{S/
kú i-s ogen-ac
3 inf-imp find-2

I need you to find it for me:
Tan kúxi i ogenac úavul
/t{n kuXi i ONEn{S w{v@l/
tan kú-xi i ogen-ac úav-ul
1 3-dech inf find-2 need-1

Tolkien_Freak · Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:21 am Post subject:

(Kilhiryui got an orthography change, /j/ is now <j> instead of <y>.)

I would like you to help me.
Jarjaun eur mai eun.
jar-jaun eu-r mai eu-n
do-VOL me-AGENTIVE you[ACT] me-STAT

You have to find it.
Hjanjaruzag mai ken.
hjanjar-uzag mai ke-n
find-NECESSARY you[ACT] it-STAT

I need you to find it for me.
Hjanjaruzag eur mai ken euwaki.
hjanjar-uzag eu-r mai ke-n eu-wa-ki
find-NECESSARY me-AGENTIVE you[ACT] it-STAT me-REASON-BEN

The Emitarjei's no different, it's just sound changes. (At least right now.)

killerken · Joined: 30 Sep 2008 Posts: 134 Location: Florida

I got rather confused by the complex thematic relationships, so I now change meanings with verb forms.

I would like you to help me.

Aarno ostch citevii ler.

You(S) me(P) to-help benefiecial-indicator.
"Ler" basically means if the action were to be done it would be good for some reason.

You need to find it.

Aarno iish hursvii shemponvii dhaan.

You(S) it(Goal) to-search to-need present-indicator.

I need you to find it for me.

Osto, arno aa'ac ost isch hursvii, shemponvi dhaan.

I(S), you(S) for me it(P) to-search, to-need present-indicator.
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kyonides · Joined: 28 Aug 2008 Posts: 301

I would like you to help me.

Noe gereune klednai kes Koe. (Nedranse / Conditional)
Noe gereune sha Koe (nu) klednai Noes. (Nedranse / Conditional, subordinate clause)
Noe gerenvie klednai kes Koe. (keslinesve Ense / Courtesy Mood Present Tense)
Noe gerenvie sha Koe (nu) klednai Noes. (keslinesve Ense / Courtesy Mood Present Tense)
Noe gerensine klednai kes Koe. (keslinesve Plaense / Courtesy Mood Future Tense)
Noe gerensine sha Koe (nu) klednai Noes. (keslinesve Plaense / Courtesy Mood Future Tense)
---
---
You need to find it.

Koe planayd odreu Lesa / Disal.
You-NOM need-more-PRES to-find it-NOM (pick one of 2 different pronouns).
---
---
I need you to find it for me.

Noe mezen Koes ras odreu Lesa / Disal ves / ras / denoys Noe.
I-NOM to-need-PRES you-DAT for to-find it-NOM (1 / 2) by / for / instead of I-NOM.

Noe mezen sha Koe odraedse Lesa / Disal ves / ras / denoys Noe.
I-NOM to-need-PRES that you-NOM to-find-FUT-SUBJ it-NOM (1 / 2) by / for / instead of I-NOM.
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eldin raigmore · Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:53 am Post subject:

Arpien? I don't know yet; I think it's settled by the rules I already have, but I haven't worked out exactly how they settle it yet. I have to think and analyze a little more.

Adpihi and Reptigan?
These are not "subject-prominent" languages.
They have grammatical relations, in the sense that some of their clauses have subjects, and some of those have primary objects, and some have secondary objects instead of or as well as primary objects.
But not every clause necessarily has something that's clearly its subject by having far-and-away more properties on Keenan's "Subject Properties List" than it lacks, and far-and-away more such properties than any other argument.

Instead, the core argument positions or structural cases in Adpihi and Reptigan are decided by Dowty's and Primus's "Proto-Agent Properties", "Proto-Patient Properties", and "Proto-Recipient Properties", as revised by later linguists.

These are: S, A, U, and E.
The S argument has both more (or at least as many) Proto-Agent Properties and more (or at least as many) Proto-Patient Properties than (or as) any other argument.
The A argument has more (or at least as many) Proto-Agent Properties than (or as) any other argument, but has fewer (or not more) Proto-Patient Properties than at least one other argument.
The U argument has more (or at least as many) Proto-Patient Properties than (or as) any other argument, but has fewer (or not more) Proto-Agent Properties than at least one other argument.
The E argument(s) has fewer (or not more) Proto-Agent Properties than at least one other argument, and also has fewer (or not more) Proto-Patient Properties than at least one other argument.
I haven't been able to assure myself what Primus's "Proto-Recipient"s are. As near as I can tell so far, they satisfy the following:
First, define "involvement" as: the sum of the number of Proto-Agent Properties and Proto-Patient Properties an argument has.
Then the Proto-Recipient satisfies the following:
* It's more "involved" than (or, at least as involved as) any other argument, possibly excepting the S argument, possibly also excepting the Proto-Agent, possibly also excepting the Proto-Patient.
* It has fewer (or, not more) Proto-Agent Properties than any other argument, possibly excepting the Proto-Patient.
* It has fewer (or, not more) Proto-Patient Properties than any other argument, possibly excepting the Proto-Agent.

I have no confidence that these won't sometimes contradict each other.

The basic divisions of clause-types by what sorts of "structural cases" are occupied, are:
S
A U
S E
A U E
(Supposedly a clause may have no core arguments; supposedly it may have four.)
If a clause has only one core argument that must be its S.
A clause that has an S can't have an A; a clause that has an A can't have an S; but every clause that has any participants must have either an S or an A.
A clause that has an S can't have a U; a clause that has a U can't have an S; but every clause that has any participants must have either an S or a U.
A clause that has an A must have a U; a clause that has a U must have an A.
A clause can't have more than one S.
A clause can't have more than one A.
A clause can't have more than one U.
But clauses could, conceivably, have more than one E.
If a clause has any core argument(s) that (isn't)aren't S or A or U, (it)they are all E.
Maybe there are S E E clauses, and/or A U E E clauses. I don't think I'll allow S E E E clauses, but, maybe ....

Any clause that has an S, that deserves to be called its Subject.

"Switch-reference marking" tracks "same A or different A" rather than "same Subject or different Subject", and "same U or different U" rather than "same Object or different Object".

The other function served by Grammatical Relations (such as Subject, Direct Object or Primary Object, and Secondary Object or Indirect Object) is "syntactic pivots".

Adpihi and Reptigan just have "syntactic pivots" independently of the S or A or U or E stuff.
There are at least two, and maybe three, "syntactic pivot" things.
Roughly:
The "backward-looking pivot" is the NP core argument of a main clause that has occurred as a pivot in the most recent preceding main clauses.
The "forward-looking pivot" is the NP core argument of a main clause that will occur as a pivot in the next following main clauses.
The third pivot will be that NP core argument of a main clause that occurs as a pivot in the most nearby main clauses but isn't the backward- nor forward- pivot.
(The above notion may need refinement.)

It may be that the backward-pivot is the Subject and the forward-pivot is the DO. Or it may be that the backward-pivot is the Topic and the forward-pivot is the Focus. Or maybe those ideas are statistically correlated but logically independent.
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Tolkien_Freak · Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:06 am Post subject:

Can you show us some examples of this in action in Adpihi and Reptigan?

Hemicomputer · Joined: 04 Feb 2008 Posts: 610 Location: Calgary, Alberta

Neqitan · Joined: 24 Sep 2008 Posts: 27

Yeah, I'd want to see some Adpihi glossing.

eldin raigmore · Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:32 pm Post subject:

Aeetlrcreejl · Joined: 08 Jun 2007 Posts: 839 Location: Over yonder

I would like you to help me.
Sni-o-š-am.
help-OPT-2P.SING-me(ACC).

You need to find it.
Šeg-o-š-ta.
find-OPT-2P.SING-it.

Cid-ec-ete šeg-et-ta.
need-3P.SING-thee(ACC) find-INF-it(ACC).
Used to emphasise the need.

I need you to find it for me.
Šeg-o-š-ta-mī.
Find-OPT-2P.SING-it(ACC)-me(DAT).

Cid-ec-ete šeg-et-ta-mī.
need-3P.SING-thee find-INF-it(ACC)-me(DAT).
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