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Vreleksá
The Alurhsa Word for Constructed: Creativity in both scripts and languages
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killerken
Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 134
Location: Florida
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 Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: Fidhaas |
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That's the name of my conlang which I have been working on for some months now. I really like this site- you guys seem to know your stuff. I hope I can contribute to your discussions, although I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as certain others...
Anyway, I may as well ask a question to start off:
How do your languages distinguish between direct and indirect objects?
I add suffixes to the ends of objects, but I haven't been able to come up with a system that meets my needs.
I can say "The boy gives the girl a flower" -- "Aluinoo eluinch lindaansh hanvi dhaan"--"boy-S girl-DO flower-IO to-give present-tense"
That works for me. The problem I'm having is trying to adapt that to more complex statements. I use a SOV work order, but it acts solely as a guide, rather than a rule, so I'd prefer not to rely on word order for anything.
So, how do you do it? I'd love to hear.
Also, how do you add IPA symbols and special characters to your posts? I really had to butcher the words to type them up. Double letters are supposed to have circumflexes, everything with an h after it is a digraph, and some vowels have hooks over them to indicate different pronunciations. |
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Neqitan
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I can say "The boy gives the girl a flower" -- "Aluinoo eluinch lindaansh hanvi dhaan"--"boy-S girl-DO flower-IO to-give present-tense" |
You messed up the general definition of direct & indirect object. 
The flower should be the direct object and the girl, the indirect object. That, unless you're emphisizing that the boy gave A GIRL the flower.
By the way, those "suffixes" you are using are actually called cases, as they express the relationship of these words to the rest of words in the sentences.
The "subject" suffix is the Nominative case ending, the "direct object" one is the Accusative, and the "indirect object" one is the Dative.
Regarding how to handle ditransitive verbs (verbs with both a direct and an indirect object), you should first read how real languages do it. Check this and its related articles.
| Quote: | | Also, how do you add IPA symbols and special characters to your posts? I really had to butcher the words to type them up. Double letters are supposed to have circumflexes, everything with an h after it is a digraph, and some vowels have hooks over them to indicate different pronunciations. |
For IPA, I use BabelMap, which is a complete expansion of Windows' character maps. But you can always try either this site or this site.
For writing accented stuff in conlangs, I usually make my own keyboard layouts with MKLC. |
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Hemicomputer
Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 610
Location: Calgary, Alberta
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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Holxûs distinguishes by context, Kai by word order, Sum has case ending (but the Ergative case is inherent), and I haven't worked it out for Cohikæohoxi.
Have you considered using X-SAMPA instead of IPA?
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Last edited by Hemicomputer on Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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eldin raigmore
Admin
Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 1621
Location: SouthEast Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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@Killerken; What everyone else said, and:
| Neqitan wrote: | You messed up the general definition of direct & indirect object. :)
The flower should be the direct object and the girl, the indirect object. That, unless you're emphisizing that the boy gave A GIRL the flower. |
Look up "dechticaetiative" languages, "primative" languages, "secundative" languages, "primative/secundative" languages, "secundative/primative" languages, "anti-ergative" languages.
Some languages have a Primary Object and a Secondary Object instead of a Direct Object and an Indirect Object.
The difference is this:
In Directive/Indirective languages, the Theme of a ditransitive (like "give" or "show" or "tell") clause -- the object being transferred, given, exhibited, or narrated -- is treated in the same manner as the Patient of a monotransitive clause ("accusatively"); but the Recipient of a ditransitive clause -- the person or animate thing aware of being affected -- is treated in a new, "dative" fashion unlike any that ever show up in monotransitive clauses. The Theme is called the "Direct Object" and the Recipient is called the "Indirect Object".
But, in Primative/Secundative languages, the Recipient of a ditransitive (like "give" or "show" or "tell") clause -- the person or animate thing aware of being affected -- is treated in the same manner as the Patient of a monotransitive clause ("accusatively" or "primatively"); but the Theme of a ditransitive clause -- the object being transferred, given, exhibited, or narrated -- is treated in a new, "dechticaetiative" or "secundative" fashion unlike any that ever show up in monotransitive clauses. The Recipient is called the "Primary Object" and the Theme is called the "Secondary Object".
Do you mean your conlang to have the Dative alignment or the Dechticaetiative alignment?
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"We're the healthiest horse in the glue factory" - Erskine Bowles, Co-Chairman of the deficit reduction commission |
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killerken
Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 134
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:53 am Post subject: |
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You guys are awesome! I just got a lot of new information thrown at me, so once I ruminate on it and understand it a bit better, I'll let you know what I have in mind. Thanks a lot!
Hemicomputer: I just read the Wikipedia article on it and it looks useful, but I think I'll experiment with the keyboard layout app from Microsoft.
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Speak: English, Spanish
Invent: Fidhaas
Learn: Polish
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langover94
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 509
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:39 am Post subject: |
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In my conlang, you use prepositions to distinguish direct objects from inderect objects. For example:
Говиадевизурм oдговеш.
Goviadevizurm odgoveš.
Boy-NOM-give-3m-flower-ACC to-girl-PREP.
The boy gives the girl a flower. (Lit. "(The) boy gives (a) flower to (the) girl.")
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Neqitan
Joined: 24 Sep 2008
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Hemicomputer wrote: | | Have you considered using X-SAMPA instead of IPA? |
I learned most of the lingo-stuff with IPA... But it looks X-SAMPA is still a good alternative as computers, no matter how advanced they are, don't show up IPA well yet. (The main reason being this foolish Verdana font though.)
| eldin raigmore wrote: | | [...] |
Yes, that's what I meant with "the general definition" and "unless you're emphisizing that the boy gave A GIRL the flower"... I didn't want to mention it as he's new to these things. The dechticaetiative case is pretty awesome.
My conlangs have cases, all of them contrast the Accusative/Absolutive against the Dative/Dechticaetiative... |
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killerken
Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 134
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:16 am Post subject: |
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It seems like a dechticaetiative case is pretty close to what I am looking for. Thanks a lot!
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Speak: English, Spanish
Invent: Fidhaas
Learn: Polish
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