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The Alurhsa Word for Constructed: Creativity in both scripts and languages
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Aeetlrcreejl
Joined: 08 Jun 2007
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 Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:48 pm Post subject: Kalso'e |
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Another language. I hear your groans of sadness.
3cons language with evidentiality.
Nouns have five cases - nominative, accusative, genitive, secundative, locative and three numbers - singular, dual, and plural.
Verbs have three persons - 1st, 2nd and 3rd, three numbers - singular, dual, and plural, five evidentialty markers - visual knowledge, hearsay, inferential (doubtful), inferential (not doubtful), and nonvisual knowledge, and 8 moods - imperative, interrogative, indicative, desiderative, optative, potential, subjunctive, and necessitative, and five voices - active, passive, causative, reflexive, and reciprocal.
An example sentence is:
Did you hear the central business district wasn't destroyed by the hurricane?
Msti˛ylnoajet qatfoil nvastel-ni.
How are you supposed to gloss 3cons languages?
Msti˛lnoajet comes from the root n-'-t - place, location, exist. The middle glottal stop makes it a weak root, and so the glottal stop disappears. The pattern CoaCaC makes it imperfect, and the pattern CaCiet makes it hearsay evidentuality. The prefix l- makes the meaning opposite, and the prefix ˛- makes it causative. The prefix sti- makes it passive, and the prefix m- makes it negative.
Qatfoil is from the root t-f-l - work. The prefix qa- makes it a place (place for work), and the patter CaCoiC makes it augmentative.
Nvastel-ni comes from the root n-v-s-t "hurricane", with the suffix -el (locative) and the clitic -ni "in".
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langover94
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:01 am Post subject: |
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One question: What is a 3con language?
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Aeetlrcreejl
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:47 am Post subject: |
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Triconsonantal root language.
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Tolkien_Freak
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:23 am Post subject: |
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Looks good! 3con langs are fun.
NVST looks like 4con though... |
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langover94
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:28 am Post subject: |
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Now that I understand that....
It looks very very well done. I like the patterns that you have figured out, it makes the language logical and adds extra richness and complicatedness to the language's grammar.
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Aeetlrcreejl
Joined: 08 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Tolkien_Freak wrote: | | NVST looks like 4con though... |
3cons languages always seem to have some 4cons roots... n-v-s-t was a borrowing from Elyseri neveseti (hurricane).
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eldin raigmore
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Kalso'e |
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| Aeetlrcreejl wrote: | | How are you supposed to gloss 3cons languages? |
I recommend you follow Lehmann's Rule 20 (page 29).
The Leipzig glossing rules don't explicitly mention "triliteral" nor "triconsonantal" nor variants thereof, nor do they explicitly mention "nonconcatenative" nor variants thereof; nor do they mention "transfix" nor variants.
Nevertheless, look up rules 4, 4D, 8, and 9. They may give you some ideas.
Lehmann, Interlinear morphemic glosses mentions "Semitic" just once (1.2 "Precursors", page 3).
However it mentions "transfix" three times.
| Lehmann wrote: | 4.4 Other morphological processes
Morphological processes not covered by the above conventions comprise transfixation,
internal modification, metathesis, subtraction and suprasegmental processes (cf. ch. VIII).
These are like infixation in not being peripheral to the base, but they differ from it in that the
grammatical meaning in question is not associated with a single string of segments which, if
subtracted, leaves the base. The notation recommended here distinguishes them from the other
morphological processes, but not from each other. Such a morpheme can hardly be signaled in
the L1 representation. In the IMG, its gloss follows the gloss of the base, separated by a
backslash (R20). An example of transfixation is the Arabic broken plural, as in bujūt
(house\PL) ‘houses’. Apophony, metaphony, e.g. German säng-e (sing\IRR-1/3.SG) ‘I/he would
sing’, and tone shift, as in YM. hąats’ (beat\INTROV) ‘beat (unspec. object)’ are treated in the
same way. |
| Lehmann wrote: | R20. A grammatical meaning expressed by a non-segmentable morphological process
(transfixation, internal modification, metathesis, subtraction, suprasegmental process)
is not signaled in the L1 representation. Its gloss follows the gloss of the base,
separated by a backslash (\). |
So I recommend you follow Lehmann's Rule 20.
I'll give your example sentence a try.
| Aeetlrcreejl wrote: | An example sentence is:
Did you hear the central business district wasn't destroyed by the hurricane?
Msti˛ylnoajet qatfoil nvastel-ni. |
| Aeetlrcreejl wrote: | | Msti˛lnoajet comes from the root n-'-t - place, location, exist. The middle glottal stop makes it a weak root, and so the glottal stop disappears. The pattern CoaCaC makes it imperfect, and the pattern CaCiet makes it hearsay evidentuality. The prefix l- makes the meaning opposite, and the prefix ˛- makes it causative. The prefix sti- makes it passive, and the prefix m- makes it negative. |
| Aeetlrcreejl wrote: | | The pattern CoaCaC makes it imperfect, and the pattern CaCiet makes it hearsay evidentuality. |
I'm not sure I see how those two would work to make "Msti˛lnoajet" out of "n-?-t".
Anyway, | Aeetlrcreejl wrote: | Qatfoil is from the root t-f-l - work. The prefix qa- makes it a place (place for work), and the patter CaCoiC makes it augmentative.
Nvastel-ni comes from the root n-v-s-t "hurricane", with the suffix -el (locative) and the clitic -ni "in". |
"Msti˛ylnoajet qatfoil nvastel-ni."
m-sti-˛-y-l-noajet qa-tfoil nvast-el=ni
NEG-PASS-CAUS-EP-OPP-exist\IMPF\RPRT LOCNR-work\AUG hurricane-LOC=in
"(I?) heard that the big-work-place was not made to unexist in (the) hurricane-place".
(I don't see how this is a question. Also I don't see how it is 2nd-person.)
NEG negation (common)
PASS passive (common)
CAUS causative (common)
EP epenthetic (recommended against; should be either ˛y-l or ˛-yl instead)
OPP opposite (not common; I had to make something up.)
IMPF imperfect (common)
RPRT reportative (an evidential; the one I thought fit "hearsay" best)
LOCNR location nominalizer (common)
AUG augmentative (common)
LOC locative (common)
The "-" means different morphemes in the same word are chained together, in the normal, "concatenative" kind of morphology.
The "\" means that the grammatical inflection following it was expressed by some weird method such as "transfixation, internal modification, metathesis, subtraction and suprasegmental processes".
The "=" means the words are connected by "clisis"; either the first one is proclitic on the second one, or the second one is enclitic on the first one.
Affixes are shown in SMALL CAPS. I'm not sure OPP ("opposite") should have been shown that way; I just guessed.
------------------------------------
Does that help?
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Last edited by eldin raigmore on Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Aeetlrcreejl
Joined: 08 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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I forgot some affixes. It should be mhosti˛ylnoajetir.
Thankies for all your help.
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eldin raigmore
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeetlrcreejl wrote: | | I forgot some affixes. It should be mhosti˛ylnoajetir. Thankies for all your help. |
Can you gloss them Lehmann-wise, or at least Leipziggishly?
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Aeetlrcreejl
Joined: 08 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| eldin raigmore wrote: | | Can you gloss them Lehmann-wise, or at least Leipziggishly? |
mhosti˛ylnoajetir
m-ho-sti-˛y-l-noajet-ir
neg-interr-pass-caus-opp-exist\impf\rprt
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eldin raigmore
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeetlrcreejl wrote: | mhosti˛ylnoajetir
m-ho-sti-˛y-l-noajet-ir
neg-interr-pass-caus-opp-exist\impf\rprt |
Thanks.
What's "-ir" mean? "2nd person"? If so
m-ho-sti-˛y-l-noajet-ir
NEG-INT-PASS-CAUS-OPP-exist\IMPF\RPRT-2
("INT" means "interrogative" according to Lehmann.)
How does the addressee know this doesn't mean "I was hearing that you never asked whether it had been made to unexist the big-work-place the hurricane-place in"?
(that is, "I hear you never asked whether the business district had been destroyed in the hurricane")
That is, how does s/he know in what order to apply the semantic transformations NEG, INT, PASS, CAUS, OPP, IMPF, RPRT, 2?
BTW one possible answer is "Addressees just guess. They're usually right. If they can't make up their minds they ask. If they've obviously guessed wrong the speaker will clarify." There are languages where that's the means; for these languages, usually, either context or common sense or the combination will make only the correct interpretation seem likely.
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eldin raigmore
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Kalso'e |
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| Aeetlrcreejl wrote: | .....
Did you hear the central business district wasn't destroyed by the hurricane?
Msti˛ylnoajet qatfoil nvastel-ni.
....
Nvastel-ni comes from the root n-v-s-t "hurricane", with the suffix -el (locative) and the clitic -ni "in". |
"nvastel-ni."
nvast-el=ni
hurricane-LOC=in
"in (the) hurricane-place".
It is unusual, I think, or at least requires explanation, or at the very least requires discussion, that you use a Locative and an "=in" clitic/postposition for this.
You gloss it in English as "by the hurricane"; which makes the hurricane be a Force (an inanimate Agent), or at least an Instrument (or Means).
An alternative in English would be "during the hurricane"; if that's what you do in your conlang, a Temporal case applied to nvast- might be good (if you have a Temporal case). Or, since the hurricane was an event, you might want to make a verbal noun out of it.
But a Locative is not usually used for an ephemeral object of short duration that also is moving unpredictably instead of in a predictable place, let alone standing in one place. You might use it for a bombsite (which doesn't move) or for a railroad car (which moves predictably and is durable), though those uses would be iffy; to use it for a tornado or typhoon or other storm is unusual, it seems to me, and needs explanation IMO. (Those things neither last nor stay still; their movements aren't even predictable, and neither is their duration, except that it will be at most a matter of months, and usually only a few days.)
I think when English says "Did you hear that the business district was not destroyed in the hurricane?", "in" is not being used locatively; it's a "quirky" use if in in English.
For conlangs to copy natlangs' quirks, rather than their less-quirky features, is not usually what a priori conlangs seek to do. "Shared irregularities" are a sign of genetic relationship, or at least of contact or areal relationship.
It's often said that a conlang should have irregularities and quirks, and it's certainly OK for them to; and perhaps they should have a similar general kind of quirk as a natlang; but they shouldn't have exactly the same quirk as a natlang unless they are supposed to be related to it.
That's IMO.
I think the project is a great one and I'm impressed by your progress. This sentence really deserves to have more space devoted to it than the above criticism, but that's not how things go; criticism, if it's constructive, is detailed and careful and takes space, while praise, especially if it's for everything, typically sounds like stuff one has said before, so one shortens it. But I like your work. I want you to know that.
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Aeetlrcreejl
Joined: 08 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:16 am Post subject: |
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=ar is in. Oops. =ni is by.
| eldin raigmore wrote: | | This sentence really deserves to have more space devoted to it than the above criticism, but that's not how things go; criticism, if it's constructive, is detailed and careful and takes space, while praise, especially if it's for everything, typically sounds like stuff one has said before, so one shortens it. But I like your work. I want you to know that. |
Don't worry; this board needs more constructive criticism. I was to make a thread addressing this issue, but then I didn't.
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langover94
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| Aeetlrcreejl wrote: | | Don't worry; this board needs more constructive criticism. I was to make a thread addressing this issue, but then I didn't. |
I agree.
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Aeetlrcreejl
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: |
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People here are far too nice. We need some rude people to brighten up the board, get everybody to work harder.
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eldin raigmore
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeetlrcreejl wrote: | | =ar is in. Oops. =ni is by. |
"nvastel-ni."
nvast-el=ni
hurricane-LOC=by
"by (the) hurricane-place".
But what kind of "by"? The "near" by? the "demoted agent" by? the "means" by? the "path" by?
Also; if it is the "demoted agent" by (as I suspect it is, though in this case "force" is a better term than "agent", since hurricanes are inanimate), why put it in the Locative case? For the most part places aren't forces; for the most part places don't do things to things.
| Aeetlrcreejl wrote: | | People here are far too nice. We need some rude people to brighten up the board, get everybody to work harder. |
You could ask StrangeMagic to invite Mr. Saturday and Sano to join.
(I don't think that inviting Mr. Saturday is necessarily such a great idea; it's often hard to tell that his criticism is constructive.
Sano OTOH has done a lot of good work on other forums; though he can also be a bit prickly. He was here then he left. I'm not sure why, I just know he didn't want to talk about it. StrangeMagic might know more.)
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Aeetlrcreejl
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:20 am Post subject: |
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Means by.
More like an adpositional case. I may delete it.
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eldin raigmore
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeetlrcreejl wrote: | | Means by. |
I guess I get that.
In most languages with adpositions, most adpositions seem to have more than one meaning; or, at least and in particular, more than one translation in most other languages.
You're saying "=in" matches almost perfectly with English's "by".
For each particular adposition that's a coincidence; but it might be statistically unlikely, having a big set of adpositions, not to have one or two such coincidences.
| Aeetlrcreejl wrote: | | More like an adpositional case. |
I get that.
It's (i.e. "-el" is) a case one of whose main meanings is "Locative"; but it also tends to be governed by most adpositions (that don't distinctly govern some other case(s) instead).
(Chances are most cases can be governed by two or more adpositions, and/or most adpositions can govern two or more cases; odds are you mean "Locative" to be one of the governed cases for the majority of adpositions. Perhaps also you mean that no other case is governed by so many adpositions.)
| Aeetlrcreejl wrote: | | I may delete it. |
I don't know if I want you to! (though of course it's up to you.) At least I don't want you to do it mostly because you think I "want you" to or "think you ought" to.
--------
Thanks.
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