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Selvanian Conworld

 
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Aeetlrcreejl



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Selvanian people are related to the Romans, and they, with some Etruscans, somehow ended up on Selvania (an island to the left of Sardinia, and slightly bigger than it) and their language reflects this Etruscan influence. Droves of Carthaginian refugees also came here after the Punic Wars, and the Ottomans held Selvania for longer than most of their other European territories - it only gained independence in 1919.

Somewhat related - I'm thinking of making an epic about some Selvanian warrior and how he helped the Selvanians beat the Romans - Selvania was never conquered by the Romans, and the Selvanians were very proud of that. What think ye of it?
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick question: if it's further west than Sardinia, why on earth would the Ottomans get there? They never even entered Italy. Do you mean something other than Sardinia?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
Somewhat related - I'm thinking of making an epic about some Selvanian warrior and how he helped the Selvanians beat the Romans - Selvania was never conquered by the Romans, and the Selvanians were very proud of that. What think ye of it?
I think that would be great! I love epics.
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Aeetlrcreejl



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak: Cum Ottomanici* Selimis Primi** Algierem*** vicissent, borealiter navigaverunt, audita non vicisse Italianis Selvania, et tum Selvaniam vicerunt.

*Ottomanicus, i - Ottoman
**Selim Primus, Selimis Primi - Selim I m.
***Algiers, Algieris - Algiers f.
audita non vicisse Selvania - audita and Selvania are ablative in an ablative absolute construction, just in case you were wondering. Reading through, I thought that part might have been confusing.

Hemicomputer: Excellent.
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, that part is a bit confusing. I think I get the main idea though. (Forgot about North Africa under Ottoman rule, that makes things a bit easier.)
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Aeetlrcreejl



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those who don't speak Latin:

When the Ottomans under Selim I had conquered Algiers, they sailed north because they had heard that Selvania was not conquered by the Spanish (not the Italian, I goofed), and they then conquered Selvania.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
The Selvanian people are related to the Romans,
So, they were probably Latins or Foederates, right? Maybe from Alba Longa? Maybe Sabines or Samnites or Samnians? At any rate, their language would have been something Western Italic or Southeastern Celtic in the Italo-Celtic Family? Maybe they were like Cisalpine Gauls (Celts who lived on the same side of the Alps as Rome)? Maybe even Cispadane Gauls (Celts who lived on the same side of the Po River as Rome)?
Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
and they, with some Etruscans,
InRealLife, in OurTimeLine (509 BCE), the Roman Republic was established when Rome drove out their last king. Since that last king was their last Etruscan ruler, that coincided with Roman independence from the Etruscans. The Etruscans became distinctly second-class in Italy -- politically, militarily, and economically -- quite soon after (394 BCE), and their cultural influence also began to wane rapidly to the point that the average Italian probably was no longer aware of it. (However it was still there, and probably much further afield than Italy; for instance there's reason to believe that the Futhark Runes used in Germanic and Scandinavian writing were based directly on the Etruscan letters, rather than coming through some Italic or Celtic intermediate.) IRL OTL the trouble with the Cisalpine Gauls happened after Rome became a Republic.
Republican Rome's rapidly-increasing influence, in the early Republic, was achieved more diplomatically and economically rather than militarily, and they tended to use the carrot more than the stick. They didn't so much conquer other towns, as persuade their populace that they'd be richer moving to where the Romans wished a town was rather than staying where they were.
Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
somehow ended up on Selvania (an island to the left of Sardinia,
"Left"? If the top of the map is the East, "left" means "North". Do you mean Selvania is North of Sardinia? If the top of the map is South, then "left" means "East". Do you mean Selvania is East of Sardinia?

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
and slightly bigger than it) and their language reflects this Etruscan influence.
Could the Etruscans have remained very influential in Selvania even after the Roman Republic began to control (as "foederates") all the Latins in Italy? And/or even after the Romans put down the problem of the Cispadane Gauls, or even after they put down the Transpadane Cisalpine Gauls?
Maybe they stayed rich, stayed active in commerce, stayed culturally influential in art and literature and religion, and were allowed to participate politically on equal, or nearly-equal, terms with the Latin Selvanians?

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
Droves of Carthaginian refugees also came here after the Punic Wars,
So there'd be a big Semitic influence, too. (Kart Hagos means "New Town" in Phoenician, and the Phoenicians were Semites. Maybe the capital, or the second-biggest city, or something, on Selvania, would be either "New Carthage" or "Little Carthage" (like Carthageña). (See 246-146 BCE.)

So we have:
"Selvanian 'Latin'" (aka "Selvanian Mark I" -- maybe Balearic?) + Etruscan --> "Selvanian Mark II"
"Selvanian Mark II" + Carthaginian Semitic --> "Selvanian Mark III", (which might have sounded a bit like Maltese Mozarabic? except it wouldn't have been Semitic influenced by "Latin"/Etruscan, but rather "Latin"/Etruscan influenced by Semitic. And I'm sure Carthaginian wasn't the same as Arabic any more than Hebrew is.)
"Selvanian Mark III" + Turkish --> "Selvanian Mark IV" aka "Selvanian as she is spoke".

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
and the Ottomans held Selvania for longer than most of their other European territories - it only gained independence in 1919.
Turkey and Russia are the two RL nationstates in OTL that straddle the boundary between Europe and Asia. (IMO Europe is more of a subcontinent like India than a continent like Australia or Antarctica.) That boundary runs through the Ural Mountains, the Ural River, the Caspian Sea, the Black Sea, and the Hellespont. "New Rome" aka "Byzantium" aka "Constantinople" aka "Istanbul" is pretty much as close to Asia as you can get and still be in Europe.

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
Somewhat related - I'm thinking of making an epic about some Selvanian warrior and how he helped the Selvanians beat the Romans - Selvania was never conquered by the Romans, and the Selvanians were very proud of that. What think ye of it?
By the time the RealLive Ottomans -- or even the RL Seljuks -- got to RL Anatolia or Asia Minor (or anywhere else in the neighborhood of, or formerly under the influence of, "New Rome") in OurTimeLine *here*, the Etruscans had been long gone from the stage of history. Carthage was now an important Roman town, the capital of the Roman province of Africa; it was the second biggest city in the Western Roman Empire. The invasions of the various "barbarian" (mostly) Germanic tribes, such as Wends, Vandals, Goths, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Lombards, Huns, Franks, etc., had really hurt the West. The Goths had conquered Rome. The Western Roman capital moved to Nicomedia and to Mediolanum (Milan). The Vandals had conquered Carthage and (most of) the Roman province of Africa. Both the Western Emperor and the Eastern Emperor kept trying to conquer it back, often with partial or temporary success. Carthage and Africa, like Rome, were basically Roman Christian towns that were theoretically controlled by persons of Germanic descent; Vandals in Africa, Visigoths in Spain, Ostrogoths in Italy. The Cellularians and the Donatists were the dominant sort of Christians in Africa, or at least in Vandal-controlled Carthage; they weren't necessarily on good terms with the Christians in charge in Rome and "New Rome".

When the Seljuk Turks moved into Asia Minor and took most of the Byzantine land east of Byzantium, the Muslims had already gained control of North Africa and of Spain, or at least most of Spain, or at the very least a good fraction of it. The Osmanlı or Ottoman Turks were a minor tribe whom the Seljuks gave the less-desirable territory right up against Byzantium; the Seljuk capital was Iconia.

Ottoman dominance began when they took Constantinople. The Eastern Roman capital was moved to Trapezium (Trebizond); those people eventually became "Armenians" (not that there weren't already Armenians -- just that the NewRoman refugees blended in with them.)

(So, let's see how many "Romes" there have been so far:
1. Rome
2. Constantinople
3. Nicomedia
4. Milan
5. Trebizond
where the heck do Muscovites get off calling Moscow "the Third Rome"?)

Quite possibly the Ottomans would have inherited Selvania from the Byzantines. The Eastern Emperor frequently campaigned west of the Western capital to reconquer formerly-Roman territory, just as the Western Emperor frequently campaigned closer to New Rome than to Rome or Nicomedia or Milan. Often these were joint operations; nevertheless, often one Emperor was "more equal than" the other, and so places like the Exarchate of Ravenna were more under the control of the Eastern Emperor than the Western.

When you say Rome, or the Romans, never conquered Selvania, which Rome and which Romans are you talking about? Once the Mediterranean became "Mare Nostrum" (30 BCE), it might as well have been a Roman Lake. It's extremely unlikely that such a small and isolated place could be so totally surrounded by Roman dominance for, say, 315 years (until 285 CE when Diocletian created the "tetrarchy", except by the tolerance of Rome. Still less likely that they would have remained independent until 395 CE.

Why would the Romans, from Augustus to Theodosius I, tolerate such independence? Only two possible reasons occur to me, and they'd have to have both been true;
* Selvania was simply "no threat", and
* Selvania was not a base nor safe-haven for pirates.

I can't see how Selvania would be "no threat" if it were larger than Sicily or Sardinia or even Corsica, all of which Rome conquered. Perhaps if it were the size of one of the Balearic Islands (or a bit bigger) it might have been perceived as "no threat". Anyway, there's no room in the Mediterranean for another island bigger than Sardinia west of Sardinia without getting rid of some of the smaller islands already there.

In 67 BCE, before the end of the Third Mithridatic War, the Mediterranean had fallen under the control of pirates, mostly from Cilicia. (See this.) Cilicia is said to occupy about a third of modern Anatolian. It's also known as Çukurova, which has a land-area of 38,585.16 km^2 (14,897.8 sq mi). So, Selvania couldn't be bigger than that or it'd be a haven for pirates, I'm thinking.
(Of course, Sardinia is 24,090 km^2 (9,301.2 sq mi), Cyprus is 9,251 km^2 3,572 sq mi, and Corsica is 8,680 km^2 (3,351.4 sq mi).

Since IMO the Romans wouldn't have ignored anything the size of Corsica or bigger, I think the Balearic Islands are your best bet. Maybe Selvania could be a "new" Balearic island a bit bigger than Majorca?

The ability to fight well applies to the ancient inhabitants of the Balearic Islands.
Wikipedia wrote:
In ancient times, the islanders of the Gymnesian Islands constructed talayots, and were famous for their skill with the sling. As slingers they served, as mercenaries, first under the Carthaginians, and afterwards under the Romans. They went into battle ungirt, with only a small buckler, and a javelin burnt at the end, and in some cases tipped with a small iron point; but their effective weapons were their slings, of which each man carried three, wound round his head (Strabo p. 168; Eustath.), or, as seen in other sources, one round the head, one round the body, and one in the hand. (Diodorus) The three slings were of different lengths, for stones of different sizes; the largest they hurled with as much force as if it were flung from a catapult; and they seldom missed their mark. To this exercise they were trained from infancy, in order to earn their livelihood as mercenary soldiers. It is said that the mothers only allowed their children to eat bread when they had struck it off a post with the sling.
The Etruscan influence, you could borrow from Corsica. The Carthagenian influence on the Balearics, and their independence from Rome, are also borne out.
Wikipedia wrote:
The Phoenicians took possession of the islands in very early times; a remarkable trace of their colonization is preserved in the town of Mago (Mahon in Minorca). After the fall of Carthage, the islands seem to have been virtually independent. Notwithstanding their celebrity in war, the people were generally very quiet and inoffensive.
But in real life the Romans conquered them as part of their campaign against the pirates (the way the Phillipines were conquered by Admiral Halsey in the Spanish-American War); there was no connection between the Balearics and the pirates, certain Romans just used the pirates as an excuse.
Wikipedia wrote:
The Romans, however, easily found a pretext for charging them with complicity with the Mediterranean pirates, and they were conquered by Q. Caecilius Metellus, thence surnamed Balearicus, in 123 BC. Metellus settled 3,000 Roman and Spanish colonists on the larger island, and founded the cities of Palma and Pollentia.


In real life, there was a lot of Senatorial opposition to the campaign against the pirates, and particularly to the commanders of the campaign (even people who wanted to get rid of pirates didn't necessarily like giving Pompey another chance at military glory), and against the broad carte blanche powers the Lex Gabinia gave him (even people who liked Pompey didn't like him having that much power.)
I can't find much in Wikipedia about what the Senate had to say about Metellus.
But, maybe, in your alternate history, cooler and more reasonable and just and honest heads might prevail in the Roman Senate about the Balearic Islands during the anti-piracy campaigns. Maybe more of Pompey's own party would have opposed him, as some of them did IRL; maybe fewer of the opposition party would have supported him, as, crucially, Julius Caesar and Crassus did IRL.

Majorca IRL is 3,640.11 km² (about 1422 sq mi).
The Lex Gabinia gave Pompey absolute power anywhere within 50 miles of the Mediterranean.
Any island bigger than about 7854 sq mi would have to have parts further than 50 miles from the Med. Sardinia is bigger than that, but Cyprus and Corsica are smaller.
Maybe in your AlternateTimeLine the limit was shorter than 50 miles? If it were 20 miles or less (more than 10 hours forced march), Majorca would be big enough to have parts not covered by the Lex Gabinia; if it were 10 miles or less (a more reasonable day's march), more than half of Corsica's area wouldn't be covered.

Perhaps Selvanians just welcomed Pompey's (or whoever's) ships and soldiers to the entire coast of Selvania, without any dissent or armed conflict? Say, everything within 12 miles (an ordinary civilian's limit of walking-ability) of the sea? Maybe the Selvanians didn't like pirates either, and were pleased to tell the Romans so. Maybe they let the Romans use their coast, or parts of it, for anti-piracy operations, in exchange for guarantees that Selvanian fishing and trading ships (who really wouldn't like pirates) and boats could go and come as they pleased without interference from Romans? And Selvanians, whether of Greek or Etruscan or Carthaginian background, could move freely in most of the areas the Romans were using (possibly excepting actual Roman military camps)? For me that sounds reasonable. In fact the Selvanian shippers might have welcomed Roman warship escorts; and the Selvanian mercenaries might have welcomed jobs aboard those warships to fight pirates. Deals like this could have kept Selvania techically out of Roman hands; the Romans wouldn't have had to actually take over Selvania to get everything they wanted from them, and the Selvanians wouldn't have minded dealing with them provided their minorities' rights were not compromised.

What do you think?

If their mercenary tradition persisted into the end of the Middle Ages (i.e. after the fall of Byzantium to the Ottomans), they might indeed have produced one or more heroes who fought alongside the Ottomans against, say, the Spanish.

But their independence from Rome before it split, and from Eastern and Western Rome after the split, would probably have been based on negotiations rather than combat, IMO.

What would they have been doing after the various "barbarian" tribes began taking the territory formerly Rome's?

For that matter, when the Vikings (or, OK, the Normans, who did in fact conquer Sicily) began having a big effect on the Mediterranean, what would the Selvanians have done?

They still wouldn't have liked pirates; OTOH they still would have enjoyed being mercenaries.

I think that the heroes they had who combatively defended Selvania would have likelier defended it from barbarian invaders, vikings, or pirates, than from Romans of any stripe.

But don't forget that RedBeard (Barbarossa) was, from the Turkish P.o.V., a pirate-fighter who defeated the pirate Andrea Dorrea; but, from the Italian P.o.V., Andrea Dorrea was a pirate-fighter who bravely lost against the pirate Barbarossa, at such great cost to Barbarossa that his piracy was curtailed.

The Selvanians were likely to accept jobs as mercenaries with anyone who could suppress piracy (I'm betting).
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Serali
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like it.

It reminds me of one of mine.


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Aeetlrcreejl



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
SNIPPED TO PROTECT OUR TROOPS


Works for me - I was thinking today (in class; I'm such a slacker) that to preserve Selvania's independence, I would need to have some sort of agreements with the Romans. And I will decrease Selvania's size. Selvania would be west of Sardinia, midway between the Balearics and Sardinia and slightly bigger than Mallorca.

The Etruscans have been absorbed into the Selvanian population, and not much remains except their influence on language.

Thus probably Selvania would have been conquered by the Vandals when they migrated out of Carthage. After the Byzantines beat the Vandals, they would have gotten it. The Almoravids had it when they ruled Spain. Then the Ottomans got it, and when the Ottoman Empire fragmented, Selvania became independent (woo-hoo!). Does that sound good?[/quote]
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Last edited by Aeetlrcreejl on Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty dang far for the Byzantines to rule, seems like it would get a period of independence before the Almoravids. That, or a holdout of Vandal rule before somebody else came in and grabbed it.

(It still seems really far from Türkiye to be ruled by the Ottomans.)
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Aeetlrcreejl



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
Pretty dang far for the Byzantines to rule, seems like it would get a period of independence before the Almoravids. That, or a holdout of Vandal rule before somebody else came in and grabbed it.

(It still seems really far from Türkiye to be ruled by the Ottomans.)


I think it depends on what the East-West schism did to the Byzantine Empire.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
Works for me - I was thinking today (in class; I'm such a slacker)
Probably not slack-prone; probably, you just have an appropriate sense of priorities.
Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
that to preserve Selvania's independence, I would need to have some sort of agreements with the Romans. And I will decrease Selvania's size. Selvania would be west of Sardinia, midway between the Balearics and Sardinia and slightly bigger than Mallorca.

The Etruscans have been absorbed into the Selvanian population, and not much remains except their influence on language.

Thus probably Selvania would have been conquered by the Vandals when they migrated out of Carthage. After the Byzantines beat the Vandals, they would have gotten it. The Almoravids had it when they ruled Spain. Then the Ottomans got it, and when the Ottoman Empire fragmented, Selvania became independent (woo-hoo!). Does that sound good?
Probably, though the matters Tolkien_Freak (and Serali, too, for that matter) have raised, should be weighed carefully as well.

Here's what I was thinking last night.

The fact that I was thinking it means that your Selvania is interesting to me.

Some of it will be a dead letter if your last post is the way you choose go, but most of it will still be possible.

Anything you plain don't like, ignore.

Anything you like, but have trouble fitting in, change to make it fit if you want; or, if you like two things but can't have them both, choose either one. If you want to.

Anything you'd like to incorporate without alteration, feel free; this is my permission to you to do so, and you needn't credit me Surprised Shocked ; the Selvanian idea was yours.

Alt.Geography:
In your alt.Mediterranean, RL.Corsica doesn't exist as such; instead, there's Selvania, which is north and west of Sardinia, east of the RL.Balearics, smaller than RL.Corsica but larger than Majorca, Minorca, and Ibiza all put together.

Alt.PreHistory Before the Roman Republic:
1. The initial inhabitants were speakers of a language related to Basque spoken in and around the Pyrennees, especially modern northeastern Spain and modern southern France. All provable traces of this language have disappeared from modern alt.Selvanian except for very many place names, especially names of mountains and of bodies of water. (In RL about a third of Spain and France have lots of such place-names.)

2. The first IE-speaking inhabitants were Celts rather than Italics. They spoke a brand of Celtic related to that of the Ibero-Celts of the region now occupied by modern Spain and Portugal, but also related to that of the Gauls occupying the region now occupied by modern France; particularly the Mediterranean coast of Gaul and the northern Mediterranean coast of Iberia. Again, their language has had no provable remaining effect on alt.historical Selvanian, save for place-names.

3. Phoenician and Greek and Etruscan traders and shippers came and settled too. They hated pirates, of course; what sea-traders don't?

The first Greek settlement were a bunch of Boeotians ("Dawn-Cattle Islanders"; bo=cattle and eo=dawn) who had been marooned there naked by pirates, but were sheltered and aided by the inhabitants.

The Etruscans (Tyrrhenians to the Greeks) were much more interested in commerce than conquest, and found the excellent mercenary skills of the Selvanians to be helpful in protecting against piracy; they became the dominant political force on the island, but were not interested in extirpating the cultural diversity there.

The Phoenicians introduced Baal worship. The name of the island comes from a coincidence of the name the Greeks called it and the name the Phoenicians called it; they had different meanings but similar sounds. Phoenicians and Greeks also enjoyed hiring Selvanians as mercenaries.

Etruscans introduced and popularized many games still played by the Selvanians.

Neither the Greeks nor the early Phoenicians (before the Carthaginians) nor even the Etruscans left any firmly provable influence on the alt.historical Selvanian language, except for place-names; but the Selvanian script actually was rooted in those three scripts.

Alt.History Before Metellus:
1. During the rise of the Roman Republic, in their conflict with the Etruscans, many Etruscan refugees moved to Selvania.

2. During the Roman conflict with the non-Latin Italics, many Italic-speaking but not Latin-speaking refugees moved to Selvania. Sabines, Oscans, Samnians, and Umbrians, among others. These are the earliest linguistic influences provably detectable in alt.historical Selvanian that are traceable to an actual alt.historical event.

3. Selvania was actually a destination for refugees from every defeat in war on the Mediterranean coast by anybody up until about 80 BCE; the closer the defeated party was to Selvania, however, the likelier they were to flee there.

4. When the Romans defeated the Cisalpine Gauls and successfully suppressed all the Gauls of Italy, some of these very southern very eastern Celtic-speakers moved to Selvanian, having an effect on the language.

5. After the Punic wars many Carthaginians fled to Selvania. They had an influence on the language too. The "Thunderer" (Barca) family -- Hanno-Baal (Hannibal, "Joy of Baal"), Hasdru-Baal, and Hamilcar -- had an influence, too. (Note: Hannibal's mom was an Ibero-Celt, an Iberian Gaul.)

6. During the Social War, between the non-Roman Latins and Rome, many Latins fled to Selvanian. These were the first native-speakers-of-Latin in Selvania, and they had a major influence on its language.

Alt.Metellus:
In your alt.history, the man known as Quintus Caecilius Metellus was a native of Selvania who hired on as a mercenary in Pompey's army to fight the Cilician pirates.

The Romans thought he was the fifth member of a band of brothers who all did so at the same time. (Actually they were brothers and cousins and family-friends and next-door-neighbors. But the Romans never bothered to notice the difference.) That's why the Romans called him "Quintus".
Also, the Romans noticed immediately that he was good at shoeing horses; face it, not all sailors are. So they at first made him a farrier; that's why they called him "Caecilius".

He distinguished himself in ship-to-ship combat, in landings and establishing beachheads, and in ground combat, and came to the notice of Pompey, who promoted him repeatedly, as it became clear he was not only an excellent private soldier, but a cunning and crafty commander.

One battle in which his expertise and courage were crucial was helping the Balearic Islanders prevent the pirates from gaining footholds in the Balearics.

At the end of the campaign, Pompey asked the Senate to reward Quintus Caecilius by making him governor of Selvania (actually all they could do was give him that title; he neither wanted to rule Selvania nor could have persuaded his fellow Selvanians to let him do so.) The Senate went overboard and made him "governor" of all the Balearic Islands, as well as Selvania.

He retired from his mercenary-soldier career; that's why the Romans called him "Metellus" (which means "retired mercenary", I think). He returned to Selvania and was welcomed by the population as a returning hero.

The Senate voted him the name "Balearicus", meaning "conqueror of the Balearics". Actually, he didn't conquer them, though he was "the first Roman governor" of the Balearics, and owed that title to his military success there.

Alt.History of "Republican" Rule on Selvania:

1. The Greeks brought the notions of constitutional and senatorial and democratic rule, though they weren't wed to these notions, and even when they put them into practice the richer were more influential than the poorer.

2. The Etruscans wanted a Senate; like the Etruscan kings in Italy, even those who were kings of cities that weren't mostly populated by Etruscans, they drafted or "conscripted" a Senate for Selvania. They gathered together the senior (senex) male representatives (patriarchs?) of each of the richest and most influential families and "drafted" or "conscripted" them into a Senate; the members were called "the Conscript Fathers". The number of Senators so conscripted was double the fraction of the population in the Senate of any Italian town. It deliberately included important locals who weren't Etruscan, and important Selvanians who were important for reasons other than being rich, and other than for being militant.

3. The Carthaginians were used to a Senate, too. But the survivors of Hannibal's campaigns felt that he and his army had been "stabbed in the back" by the Carthagenian Senate; so they went for a separation-of-powers, checks-and-balances style.


Selvania was never conquered by Rome:

1. From the very beginning Selvanians, like Balearicans, liked to fight and were good at it and found "merc work" to be an honorable and lucrative way to build up a nest-egg. But, from the beginning, they hated any fighting on Selvania or between Selvanians.

2. The Greek castaways brought in a heartfelt hatred of piracy that was even stronger than that the ordinary Greek merchant-sailor felt.

3. The Etruscans also liked to fight. But the Etruscans in Selvania were more interested in commerce than in fighting. They made official policy of what had previously been just public feeling and custom;
* Selvania would co-operate with any navy that would suppress piracy.
* Many Selvanian harbors could be partially available to such navies provided they still allowed ordinary Selvanians to use them also.
* Selvania would pay tribute to such a navy only to the amount it needed to hire Selvanian mercenaries.
* Selvanian merchant-ships were free to contract with naval ships to escort them through pirate-infested waters, for any fee the sailors and passengers and owners of the ships and their merchandise were willing to pay, provided it was less than what they'd probably lose to pirates if they weren't escorted. (The less the chance of piracy, the lower the fee.)
* If the Selvanians discovered any "protection scheme" wherein the navy-men "sicced" pirates onto the Selvanian ships that didn't hire them, the Selvanians found ways to make them regret it without pissing off their home governments -- usually by not making the home-governments even be aware of the Selvanian's revenge. (Thus, Selvanian revenge, and Selvanian secret assassinations, were more legendary than Sicilian, even before the Catholic and Orthodox attempts to suppress Donatist monks in Selvania led to the legendary "Selvanian alt.ninjas" (who would be called something else, obviously).)

4. These Etruscans were well aware that they were a minority; but also that they were in a position to make a lot of money. So they made sure that the "republic" they set up in Selvania was constitutionally prone to respect minority rights and cultural diversity.

Thus, a tradition of racial and religious tolerance was introduced in Selvania earlier than it ever was in any other part of the Western world.

5. The Carthegenian immigrants could only enthusiastically appreciate that.

6. After the successful end of the war against the Cilician pirates, when Quintus Caecilius Metellus Balearicus was titled "governor of Selvania and the Balearic Islands", all the way up through the reign of Theodosius I, there was always a "Roman governor" of Selvania.
He was always a Selvanian with a Roman name.
He was always a retired mercenary well-liked by the Roman Senate and by the Selvanians.
His Roman name (which had nothing to do with his Selvanian name) always included "Metellus", and usually also included one of "Selvanicus" (descendant of the conqueror of Selvania) or "Balearicus" (descendant of the conqueror of the Balearics) or "Selvanianus" (adopted from the Selvanian family) or "Balearianus" (adopted from the Balearian family).
The Romans regarded them as "the Metllus dynasty", completely ignoring and not caring about their actual Selvanian names, whether Gallic, Greek, Etruscan, non-Latin Italic, or non-Roman Latin.

7. The Romans regarded Selvania as part of the Roman Empire. The Selvanians didn't, but saw no percentage in alerting the Romans to this difference of opinion. The Selvanians saw the "Roman Governor" as a figurehead, awarded a position as recognition of outstanding service as a mercenary soldier, a very Selvanian accomplishment. He was always one of the more popular Selvanians, but not always the most popular and seldom the most influential. However he was the spokesman of the Selvanian senate when communicating with the Roman Empire.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What do you think of that?

Anything you plain don't like, ignore.

Anything you like, but have trouble fitting in, change to make it fit if you want; or, if you like two things but can't have them both, choose either one. If you want to.

Anything you'd like to incorporate without alteration, feel free; this is my permission to you to do so, and you needn't credit me Surprised Shocked ; the Selvanian idea was yours.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder if the Vandals ever "conquered" Selvania. Maybe after the Vandals ruling Carthage were conquered, a bunch of them fled to refuge in Selvania?

Vandal-Carthagenian influence in Selvania would have made it possible for Donatist Christianity to become one of the acceptedly established forms of Christianity there; and perhaps there could have been a Donatist monastery and some Donatist hermits there. The attempts of Catholic and Orthodox Emperors to bring them to heel, and their succesful resistance, would have made these monks and hermits into a Mediterranean equivalent of "ninjas". The Imperial officials would have made up stories to excuse their failures to the Emperors.

I wonder if the first actual "conquerors" of Selvanian might not have been Normans or Norsemen or Northmen or Varangians or Vikings.

The Selvanian hatred of "pirates" would at first have pitted them against the Vikings.
But the Varangians would have been mercenaries in service to a legitimate government, making them respectable to the Selvanians. Especially since the Eastern Emperor would have wanted to suppress piracy.
And later Normans, such as King Roger of Sicily, would also have been legitimate monarchs, making them also someone the Selvanians might wish to be befriended by.

(See these.)

Maybe lots of Selvanian mercenaries who went to serve in New Rome would make Varangian friends; and maybe some of them would come home to Selvania and bring a Varangian friend with them. So some Norse influx (maybe not too much though) (and maybe some Anglo-Saxon influence as well, since the Varangians included not only Norsemen, but Rus and Angles and Saxons and lots of Germanic and Slavic speaking mercenaries) might have crept into Selvanian that way.

The Muslims in their early expansion were able to "conquer" many areas from the Christian "Roman" Emperors because of their policy of requiring tribute from Christians who neither wanted to convert nor to fight. The Emperors wanted to enforce Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Unfortunately, beginning with the Flavian dynasty, the Eastern emperors especially weighed in (largely in ignorance and without a lot of logic) in determining what "orthodox" meant. Their own Christian Emperor was unwilling to let "heterodox" Christians be Christian in their own way; and of course he needed taxes ("render unto Caesar"). The Muslims would let them worship as they chose in return for payment of a tribute which was often less than the Emperor's tax.

Such an arrangement would have appealed to the Selvanians both because they were Selvanian and it was traditional, and because many of them were Donatists and the Romans thought them heretics. Maybe they could have made the same deal with the Umayyad Berbers and Moors (Tariq b Ziyad of Gibr-al-Tariq, for instance, and Musa b Naseer) between 700 and 711 CE that they were used to making with any Mediterranean power. "We'll pay you as much tribute as you need to hire our mercenaries if you'll leave us alone in our interior, let us use our own harbors and beaches, and let us hire you to protect us against pirates; we'll even let you base some of your navy in some of our harbors or beaches. But leave our means of income alone; leave our ethnic groups alone; and leave our religion alone."

This would have led to the gradual introduction of Islam in Selvania; bloodless and slow, but devout, like in RL.Indonesia.

With the fall of the Umayyads and the rise of the Almoravids and Almohads, maybe the Selvanians had friendly (or not) relations with Kharijites, Abbasids, Aghlabids, Rustamids, Idrisids, Fatimids, Zirids, Marinids, Almoravids, Almohads, Hafsids, Mayyanids, Sharifians, Wattasids, Ottomans, Alawites, etc.

There might already have been Moorish, Berber, or even Arabic, influence in Selvania, by the time the Ottomans arrived.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Selvanians would not have been attracted to the Crusades as a holy war, but might have been attracted to it as mercenaries.

They'd have been co-operators with any religious empire or kingdom that wasn't "fundamentalist" and didn't practice "evangelism at swordpoint", or any kind of "puritanism". (Maybe they'd have welcomed Sikhs in later centuries? But not "old believers" from Russia?)

Historically and traditionally they'd have been perfectly willing to fight for hire as long as it was some distance from Selvania. But once they retired and came home they wanted to be done with fighting. So they would pursue a policy of "keeping the war away from Selvania" by selling their support to whatever buyer would best accomplish that goal. (And suppress piracy.)

During Teddy Roosevelt's Presidency of the U.S., and the American-Tripolitan War, they'd have sided with the Americans against the Tripolitan pirates -- for a fee this would have been in deed as well as word.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, wow. Impressive. I think after the Umayyads, Selvania would be ruled by the Caliphate of Cordoba until 1031, when that fragmented, but still reatin friendly relations with the Abbasids. From 1031 until 1085, Selvania was independent. in 1085, it was conquered by the Almoravids. Almoravids (and later Banu Ghaniya) ruled until 1203, when the Almohads ruled. They were beaten in 1212, at the Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa, where Selvanian soldiers fought. Some Berbers from the Almoravids and Almohads resettled in Selvania. Afterwards, the Selvanians enjoyed 300 years of independence. They fought with the Mamluks against the Kingdom of Mallorca, and later the Aragonese. The Mamluks never conquered Selvania because it was too far. Because the Aragonese supported Genoa, the Selvanians supported Venice in the War of Chioggia. I can't think of what they did until they were conquered by the Ottomans in 1534.

The Selvanians had good relations with generally all Muslim states that were tolerant towards Sunni Islam and Donatism (and would polytheism have survived the bringing of Donatism and Islam?). This does mean that they were intolerant of the Hafsids, who increased piracy against Christian shipping, and Selvania later allied with Aragon and Venice against them.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
Oh, wow. Impressive. I think after the Umayyads, Selvania would be ruled by the Caliphate of Cordoba until 1031, when that fragmented, but still reatin friendly relations with the Abbasids. From 1031 until 1085, Selvania was independent. in 1085, it was conquered by the Almoravids. Almoravids (and later Banu Ghaniya) ruled until 1203, when the Almohads ruled. They were beaten in 1212, at the Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa, where Selvanian soldiers fought. Some Berbers from the Almoravids and Almohads resettled in Selvania. Afterwards, the Selvanians enjoyed 300 years of independence. They fought with the Mamluks against the Kingdom of Mallorca, and later the Aragonese. The Mamluks never conquered Selvania because it was too far. Because the Aragonese supported Genoa, the Selvanians supported Venice in the War of Chioggia. I can't think of what they did until they were conquered by the Ottomans in 1534.
I don't know enough RL history to see a thing wrong with that; nor to say "that fits!" about it, either. I'll trust that you and the rest of our friends will have done the research.

Except ... the word "conquered".
I had formed the impression that when Selvania entered or left an empire, it usually wasn't by the force of arms of their "new overlords"; maybe their new suzerains thought of them as a conquest, but the Selvanians usually didn't (though they saw no point in saying so to the new suzerains' faces). Normally the Selvanians would be willing to grant the new suzerains nearly everything the new master would really want; the use of Selvanian ports and harbors and beaches, and Selvanian fighters, at no cost, or at least at less cost than they'd reasonably expect from anyone else they hadn't conquered.
The old suzerains wouldn't be "cast off" by Selvania until they'd proven unable to protect Selvanian shipping, Selvanian coasts, Selvanian ports and harbors and beaches, and incoming merchandise to Selvania.
New suzerains wouldn't be "submitted to" until they'd proven they could do those things.

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
The Selvanians had good relations with generally all Muslim states that were tolerant towards Sunni Islam and Donatism (and would polytheism have survived the bringing of Donatism and Islam?).
Not for long, but not because of persecution (which no Selvanian would participate in nor tolerate); simply because Donatists and Muslims would have had the more attractive and more active religions.

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
This does mean that they were intolerant of the Hafsids, who increased piracy against Christian shipping, and Selvania later allied with Aragon and Venice against them.
Great! See, that's a detail I didn't know.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the Knights of St. John of the Hospital (the Knights Hospitaler) might have appealed to the Selvanians, since they protected pilgrims. Maybe during the Crusades lots of Selvanians went off to join the Hospitallers. (It's not necessarily the case that the Donatists ever left the Catholic Church; nor that Selvanian Christians were ever mostly Donatists; that's up to you, of course. I just think Selvanians would have tolerated and sheltered "heretics" and have had a strong disinclination to choose sides in any schisms. In essence they traditionally would have regarded themselves as independent and just never mentioned that fact to Rome or Constantinople.)

My idea -- if you like it -- is that the Selvanians would have had a tradition, dating back to the Boeotian refugees, of succoring the victims of marooning or shipwreck or piracy, and of escorting innocent civilians to protect them from brigands.

Maybe the Hospitallers in your ATL ended up on Selvania instead of on Malta?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


(BTW The question arises in my mind why those very early ancient pirates marooned the Boeotians naked rather than selling them for slaves. Regardless what plausible reason becomes part of the legend, I'd expect Selvanians would thoroughly dislike slavery, almost as much as piracy. Realpolitik would require that sometimes the best anti-pirate ally available wasn't always free of the taint of slavery, but ordinarily they'd try to steer clear of it.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Selvanian Muslims might have been interested in protecting Muslim pilgrims, too.

- - - - - - - - -

Anyway:
I like your idea, and I appreciate that you like some of mine; and I hope you can work your idea out into something you're proud to show us. I look forward to it.

I'm proudest of the Metellus story. I don't know if you like it; I gather that you're mostly interested in Selvanian from the Ottomans on? But since you said "Selvania was never conquered by the Romans" I figured you would also be interested in the 300BCE-to-200CE alt.history, especially 220-to-40BCE when Rome was conquering the islands of the Mediterranean.

Maybe you know that even today the Basques in the Pyrenees "all look alike" even to their Spanish and French neighbors?

The Selvanian population would likewise be insular and isolated, and its gene-pool would likewise be less diverse than those of the peninsulas and mainlands; so to anyone else in the Mediterranean any two Selvanians of the same sex and same age would "look like siblings".
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Aeetlrcreejl



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
Except ... the word "conquered".
I had formed the impression that when Selvania entered or left an empire, it usually wasn't by the force of arms of their "new overlords"; maybe their new suzerains thought of them as a conquest, but the Selvanians usually didn't (though they saw no point in saying so to the new suzerains' faces). Normally the Selvanians would be willing to grant the new suzerains nearly everything the new master would really want; the use of Selvanian ports and harbors and beaches, and Selvanian fighters, at no cost, or at least at less cost than they'd reasonably expect from anyone else they hadn't conquered.


You're right. I guess something like "assimilated" would be a better word.


Quote:
I think the Knights of St. John of the Hospital (the Knights Hospitaler) might have appealed to the Selvanians, since they protected pilgrims. Maybe during the Crusades lots of Selvanians went off to join the Hospitallers. (It's not necessarily the case that the Donatists ever left the Catholic Church; nor that Selvanian Christians were ever mostly Donatists; that's up to you, of course. I just think Selvanians would have tolerated and sheltered "heretics" and have had a strong disinclination to choose sides in any schisms. In essence they traditionally would have regarded themselves as independent and just never mentioned that fact to Rome or Constantinople.)

My idea -- if you like it -- is that the Selvanians would have had a tradition, dating back to the Boeotian refugees, of succoring the victims of marooning or shipwreck or piracy, and of escorting innocent civilians to protect them from brigands.

Maybe the Hospitallers in your ATL ended up on Selvania instead of on Malta?



All good ideas. I was actually thinking today of having Donatism being a minority of the Christian population of Selvania - instead Arians and Nestorians would be prominent.

Quote:
I'm proudest of the Metellus story. I don't know if you like it; I gather that you're mostly interested in Selvanian from the Ottomans on? But since you said "Selvania was never conquered by the Romans" I figured you would also be interested in the 300BCE-to-200CE alt.history, especially 220-to-40BCEwhen Rome was conquering the islands of the Mediterranean.


Oh, I like it - I just don't know much about Metellus and therefore can't comment. I need to look him up.

Quote:
Maybe you know that even today the Basques in the Pyrenees "all look alike" even to their Spanish and French neighbors?

The Selvanian population would likewise be insular and isolated, and its gene-pool would likewise be less diverse than those of the peninsulas and mainlands; so to anyone else in the Mediterranean any two Selvanians of the same sex and same age would "look like siblings".


I figured that this would be so.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
You're right. I guess something like "assimilated" would be a better word.
Maybe just "joined up" would be better. "Assimilated" makes it sound like the Selvanians became more like their new suzerains than not; and as I understand it the opposite is true, they take on a bit of the color of their new suzerains but remain mostly Selvanian. What do you think?

I figure Selvania might be like Switzerland; neutral except if invaded or otherwise attacked, and except for not liking pirates. It might be "the Switzerland of the Sea". (Or, your alt.Switzerland could be "the Selvania of the Mountains".)

Maybe the knife all the kids want would be the Selvanian Marine-Corps Knife instead of the Swiss Army Knife.

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
All good ideas. I was actually thinking today of having Donatism being a minority of the Christian population of Selvania - instead Arians and Nestorians would be prominent.
To me that makes sense. Arianism was important in Europe up until Clovis and the Franks moved in and the Holy Roman Empire started. (BTW how did Selvanian get along during the HRE?) Nestorianism was important in Asia up until the Mongols conquered Syria IIRC. Donatism and Circumcellionism (sp? and I no longer remember how they differed) ceased to be important in Africa after the Muslim conquests, if they weren't already less important by the times of Belisarius and Narses.

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
Oh, I like it
Very Happy Embarassed Very Happy Embarassed Very Happy
Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
- I just don't know much about Metellus and therefore can't comment. I need to look him up.
I didn't save anything but the name and the date. Everything else is totally made-up, to fit the "Selvania was never conquered by Rome" thing.
Quintus Caecilius Metellus Balearicus is the R.L. guy I based the candidate-alt.historical Q.C. Metellus Balearicus on.
The real-life Caecilii Metelli were rich and illustrious plebeians; they included several Quintuses, and also they include the conquerors Quintus C. M. Macedonicus, Lucius C. M. Dalmaticus, Gaius C. M. Caprarius, Quintus C. M. Numidicus, and Quintus C. M. Creticus; and consuls and tribunes and pontifex maximuses (I don't know the real plural; pontifices maximi?) and censors and legates and proconsuls. (whew!).

Possibly your alt.Q.C.M. Balearicus could be adopted by Q.C.M. Macedonicus as an adult? Romans did that, especially important military figures adopted illustrious younger military men who'd done something important for Rome and for their new father.

Or you might not want him be be a Balearicus; you might make him "Q.C.M. Selvanicus" instead.

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
I figured that this would be so.
And if you choose not to have a Corsica in that Selvanian alt.Earth, the story could be "The Selvanian Brothers" instead of "The Corsican Brothers".

In which case how would the Bonapartes fit into the Selvanian alt-timeline's history? Since I think you intend to carry them past Teddy Roosevelt and World War I, don't you?

---------------------------------------------

Do you think we should ask a mod to split this thread and put the part that's not about the script or the 'lang over in the "conworlds" forum?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
Maybe just "joined up" would be better. "Assimilated" makes it sound like the Selvanians became more like their new suzerains than not; and as I understand it the opposite is true, they take on a bit of the color of their new suzerains but remain mostly Selvanian. What do you think?

I figure Selvania might be like Switzerland; neutral except if invaded or otherwise attacked, and except for not liking pirates. It might be "the Switzerland of the Sea". (Or, your alt.Switzerland could be "the Selvania of the Mountains".)

True too.

Quote:
Maybe the knife all the kids want would be the Selvanian Marine-Corps Knife instead of the Swiss Army Knife.


Or how about the Selvanian Seafarers' Sword? That's more alliterative.

Quote:
Arianism was important in Europe up until Clovis and the Franks moved in and the Holy Roman Empire started. (BTW how did Selvanian get along during the HRE?) Nestorianism was important in Asia up until the Mongols conquered Syria IIRC. Donatism and Circumcellionism (sp? and I no longer remember how they differed) ceased to be important in Africa after the Muslim conquests, if they weren't already less important by the times of Belisarius and Narses.


The Selvanians were joined up with the Vandals, but became neutral when the Vandals fell (they went to Selvania too when they fell). I don't think The Holy Roman Empire went as far down as Italy, so they wouldn't have gotten as far as Selvania.

Quote:
I didn't save anything but the name and the date. Everything else is totally made-up, to fit the "Selvania was never conquered by Rome" thing.
Quintus Caecilius Metellus Balearicus is the R.L. guy I based the candidate-alt.historical Q.C. Metellus Balearicus on.
The real-life Caecilii Metelli were rich and illustrious plebeians; they included several Quintuses, and also they include the conquerors Quintus C. M. Macedonicus, Lucius C. M. Dalmaticus, Gaius C. M. Caprarius, Quintus C. M. Numidicus, and Quintus C. M. Creticus; and consuls and tribunes and pontifex maximuses (I don't know the real plural; pontifices maximi?) and censors and legates and proconsuls. (whew!).

Possibly your alt.Q.C.M. Balearicus could be adopted by Q.C.M. Macedonicus as an adult? Romans did that, especially important military figures adopted illustrious younger military men who'd done something important for Rome and for their new father.


Hmm, I'll have to consider that.

Quote:
Or you might not want him be be a Balearicus; you might make him "Q.C.M. Selvanicus" instead.


Actually, the Etruscan god from which the name is derived, Selvans, also gave birth to the Roman god Silvanus, so I might name him Silvanicus instead.

Quote:
In which case how would the Bonapartes fit into the Selvanian alt-timeline's history? Since I think you intend to carry them past Teddy Roosevelt and World War I, don't you?


Hang on, I'm confused. The Bonapartes were before WWI.


Quote:
Do you think we should ask a mod to split this thread and put the part that's not about the script or the 'lang over in the "conworlds" forum?


Works for me. O StrangeMagic, answer our request!
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
Or how about the Selvanian Seafarers' Sword? That's more alliterative.
Indeed it is. I just was looking for a way for Selvania to "steal" Switzerland's "lines" as well as Corsica's.

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
The Selvanians were joined up with the Vandals, but became neutral when the Vandals fell (they went to Selvania too when they fell).
That's what I thought.

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
I don't think The Holy Roman Empire went as far down as Italy,
No, that's wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire wrote:
The first emperor of the Holy Roman Empire was Otto I, crowned in 962.[4] The last was Francis II, who abdicated and dissolved the Empire in 1806 during the Napoleonic Wars. It was also officially known as the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (German: Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation, Latin: Imperium Romanum Sacrum Nationis Germanicæ) by 1450.
The Empire's territorial extent varied over its history, but at its peak it encompassed the Kingdom of Germany, the Kingdom of Italy and the Kingdom of Burgundy; for much of its history the Empire consisted of hundreds of smaller sub-units, principalities, duchies, counties, Free Imperial Cities, as well as other domains. Despite its name, for most of its history the Empire did not include Rome within its borders.

Timelines:
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/holy.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_German_history
http://timelines.ws/countries/HOLY_ROMAN_EMP.HTML
http://www.timelines.info/history/empires_and_civilizations/holy_roman_empire/
this
this
this
this
this
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/timeline/Holy_Roman_Empire
https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/?period=06&region=eust
https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/?period=07&region=eust
https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/?period=08&region=eustn
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1053880.stm
Maps:



http://www.euratlas.com/big/europe_1800.jpg


And btw what would (if anything) have happened to Selvania during the struggle between the Guelphs and the Ghibellines?
And see this search and this one about "the investiture controversy".

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
so they wouldn't have gotten as far as Selvania.
In RL they got Corsica and Sardinia and Sicily, but not AFAICT the Balearic Islands.
http://www.red2000.com/spain/baleares/histor.html wrote:
Mallorca was conquered in 1229 by Jaime I of the Spanish kingdom Aragon. He left the island to his son, Jaime II, as an independent kingdom, but in 1243 it became again part of Aragon.

Menorca became part of Aragon in 1231. The island was then frequently attacked by pirates, many fortifications still remind of that epoch. In 18th century, as a consequence of the treaty of Utrecht, Menorca belonged to the British empire, and the architectonical style, specially of Mahón, is clearly influenced by that fact. After a short French domination the island became part of Spain in 1802, by the treaty of Amiens.

Historical findings on Ibiza prove to us that this island was an important Carthaginean colony. As a consequence of the war between Carthago and Rome, Romans conquered the island. From 707 it was dominated by Moors, until they were expelled by Jaime I. Also Ibiza and Formentera where frequently attacked by pirates, the latter was even temporarily left by its population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balearic_Islands#Post_Roman_Empire_and_Aragonese_conquest wrote:
Post Roman Empire and Aragonese conquest
In the chaos surrounding the fall of the Roman Empire, the islands were conquered by the Vandals. They were subsequently reconquered by the Byzantine Empire, but soon fell to the Moors after the their conquest of Iberia. The emirate of Cordoba captured them in 903. After its dissolution, they depended from the taifa of Dénia (1013-1067), later becoming an independent taifa.

Between 1113 and 1115, a fleet, led by Ugo da Parlascio Ebriaco and Archbishop Pietro Moriconi of the Republic of Pisa, 1113-1115 Balearic Islands expedition made a successful expedition against the Balearic Islands. The expedition was launched with the support of Constantine I of Logudoro and his base of Porto Torres.

In the 13th century, king James I of Aragon conquered the islands which led to subsequent founding of the Kingdom of Majorca, but in 1344 it ceased to exist and it was directly incorporated into the Crown of Aragon, which was later united dynastically with Castile as a result of the marriage of Isabella of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon to become part of the newborn Spain.

The Balearic Islands were frequently attacked by Barbary pirates from North Africa, the Formentera was even temporarily left by its population. In 1514, 1515 and 1521 coasts of the Balearic Islands and the Spanish mainland were raided by Turkish privateer and Ottoman admiral Hayreddin Barbarossa.

The island of Minorca was a British dependency most of the 18th century as a result of the Treaty of Utrecht, when Spain ceded Gibraltar and Minorca to Great Britain after being captured during the War of the Spanish Succession. It was finally and permanently ceded to Spain by the Treaty of Amiens in 1802 during the French Revolutionary Wars.

These people (who either are fruitcakes or occasionally quote fruitcakes) wrote:
123 BC - In 123 BC the Romans conquered the Balearic Islands and renamed Ibiza, Ebusus. Unlike many areas of Spain, Ibiza was not made part of the Roman Empire and managed to retain some of its independence.

So you can say either the HRE barely got Selvania for a short time, or barely missed it, depending on how you prefer, in your alt.TimeLine.

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
me wrote:
adopt
Hmm, I'll have to consider that.
Quote:
"Q.C.M. Selvanicus"
Actually, the Etruscan god from which the name is derived, Selvans, also gave birth to the Roman god Silvanus, so I might name him Silvanicus instead.
Good thoughts.

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
Quote:
... Bonapartes ... Teddy Roosevelt ... World War I ...
Hang on, I'm confused. The Bonapartes were before WWI.
But you intend to go from the beginning of Magna Graecia, Etruscan dominance in the Italian Peninsula, the rise of the Republic of Rome, and Carthagenian dominance, all the way through the Roman Empire, the Eastern RE, the Ottomans, etc., through to and including alt.WWI, right? So you'd have to include the alt.Bonapartes; and since in RL they were Corsican, my guess is their analogues in your alt.TL would be Selvanian?
Napoleon Bonaparte was born on August 15, 1769 in Ajaccio on the Mediterranean island of Corsica, the son of Carlo and Letizia Bonaparte.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_II wrote:
Napoléon François Joseph Charles Bonaparte, Duke of Reichstadt (20 March 1811 – 22 July 1832) was the son of Napoleon Bonaparte and his second wife, Marie Louise of Austria. He was known from birth as the "His Majesty the King of Rome" which Napoleon I declared was the courtesy title of the heir-apparent. His father abdicated in his favor, transferring to him the title of Emperor of the French, in 1815.

Napoleon III (20 April 1808 – 9 January 1873), Charles-Louis-Napoléon Bonaparte, was the first President of the French Republic and the last monarch of France. Made president by popular vote in 1848, Napoleon III ascended to the throne on 2 December 1852, the forty-eighth anniversary of his uncle, Napoleon I's, coronation. He ruled as Emperor of the French until September 1870, when he was captured in the Franco-Prussian War. He holds the unusual distinction of being both the first titular president and the last monarch of France.
Napoléon IV, Prince Imperial, often referred to as Louis Napoléon (Full name: Napoléon Eugène Louis Jean Joseph, 16 March 1856, Paris – 1 June 1879), Prince Imperial, Fils de France, was the only child of Emperor Napoleon III of France and his Empress consort Eugénie de Montijo. His early death in Africa sent shock waves throughout Europe, as he was the last dynastic hope for the restoration of the Bonapartes to the throne of France.
(He died fighting alongside the British in the Zulu wars.)
Victor, Prince Napoléon (Napoléon Victor Jérôme Frédéric Bonaparte; 18 July 1862 - 3 May 1926) was the Bonapartist pretender to the French throne from 1879 until his death in 1926. He was known as Napoléon V by his supporters.
(So that last Bonaparte was after WWI.)
The claims of Napoleons VI and VII and VIII verge upon fiction; there's not even fiction about Napoleons IX-XIII as near as I can tell; and Napoleon XIV is a joke.

Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt (October 27, 1858 – January 6, 1919;[2] pronounced /ˈroʊzəvɛlt/[3]), also called "T.R.",[4] was the 26th President of the United States. He is well remembered for his energetic persona, his range of interests and achievements, his model of masculinity, and his "cowboy" image. He was a leader of the Republican Party and founder of the short-lived Bull Moose Party. Before becoming the 26th President (1901–1909) he held offices at the municipal, state, and federal level of government. Roosevelt's achievements as a naturalist, explorer, hunter, author, and soldier are as much a part of his fame as any office he held as a politician.

World War I (abbreviated as WW-I, WWI, or WW1), also known as the First World War, the Great War, and the War to End All Wars, was a global military conflict that embroiled most of the world's great powers,[1] assembled in two opposing alliances: the Triple Entente and the Triple Alliance.[2] More than 70 million military personnel were mobilized in one of the largest wars in history.[3] The main combatants descended into a state of total war, pumping their entire scientific and industrial capabilities into the war effort. More than 15 million people were killed, making it one of the deadliest conflicts in history.[4]

The immediate or proximate cause of war was the assassination on 28 June 1914 of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria, heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, by Gavrilo Princip, a Serbian nationalist. Austria–Hungary's resulting demands against the Kingdom of Serbia activated a sequence of alliances. Within weeks the major European powers were at war; their global empires meant that the conflict soon spread worldwide.

By the war's end in 1918, four major imperial powers—the German, Russian, Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires—had been militarily and politically defeated, with the last two ceasing to exist as autonomous entities.

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
Quote:
split this thread
Works for me. O StrangeMagic, answer our request!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, I think I'll have Selvania fight off the HRE, and the HRE later decided it's not worth it and gives up on conquering Selvania.

The Bonapartes were from Selvania, but were trained in France and thus claimed land for France. Due to their being from Selvania, however, they refused to help France conquer Selvania (Selvania will do everything it can to stop bloodshed on its territory).

Selvania stayed neutral during the First World War. The Ottomans really didn't care whether they helped them or not. They were also technically neutral in the Second World War, but the vast majority of people supported the Allies. The Italians were going towards Selvania with the intent to conquer, but the British stopped them at sea, using Kartadra (the capital of Selvania) as a port for their ships, and the Italians never got to Kartadra.
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