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langover94
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
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 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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that is so awsome.
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Aeetlrcreejl
Joined: 08 Jun 2007
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Location: Over yonder
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you.
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Aeetlrcreejl
Joined: 08 Jun 2007
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Location: Over yonder
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:42 am Post subject: |
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I've translated parts of The Inernationale!
Šutsqov, ftikàqaq mariopne,
Šutsqov, curkeiàqaq triaq!
Timqoh ĺudaq woopne,
Lә’trudeqovule širàqaq!
Šolfaoaleqom ſýcúsә’il
Širàqaq šutsulusqom
Sulufajaqom ftariil
Tjeğaiqiqov paбojom!
Hiçanuarralә’űkf
Lә’isulurajsqom
Internasonal
Tarә’kèzỳlboļ!
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Aeetlrcreejl
Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 839
Location: Over yonder
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeetlrcreejl wrote: | I will tell you that as of now, the structure of a verb is:
Tense-Mood-Obj-Ind.Obj-Verb-Subj-Other. |
Mood is divided into the following categories:
Factuality
Duration and Repetitiveness
Truth
Telicity
Aspect
Illocution
Modality
Participation of other parties
Evidentiality
Function
Bias
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yssida
Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 253
Location: sa jaan lang
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Couldn't aspect handle Duration and Repetitiveness? What is Telicity, and Function?
Other than that, your system grammaticalizes a lot of concepts. I don't know if that's enough criterion for polysyntheticness, but yours does look like one.
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Aeetlrcreejl
Joined: 08 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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There's also Formality.
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yssida
Joined: 16 Sep 2007
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Location: sa jaan lang
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| yssida wrote: | | Couldn't aspect handle Duration and Repetitiveness? What is Telicity, and Function? |
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Aeetlrcreejl
Joined: 08 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| yssida wrote: | | Couldn't aspect handle Duration and Repetitiveness? |
Aspect and Duration/Repetitiveness are different. I used Aspect because there was no better name.
What is Telicity, and Function?[/quote]
Telicity is whether the action has been completed or not.
I can't come up with a good answer for Function right now. I'll reveal tibi later.
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yssida
Joined: 16 Sep 2007
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Location: sa jaan lang
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:27 am Post subject: |
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Thanks!
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eldin raigmore
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Joined: 03 May 2007
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Location: SouthEast Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| Aeetlrcreejl wrote: | | yssida wrote: | | ... What is Telicity ... |
Telicity is whether the action has been completed or not. |
What "telicity" means when Aeetlrcreejl says it about his conlang(s) is for him to say; but "telic" and "atelic" do have standard cross-linguistic meanings among linguists.
For instance do this Google search.
Basically, a clause, or an "event or situation or process or ...", is atelic if, even if it's interrupted before its endpoint is reached, it has still occurred; it is telic if, if it's interrupted, it hasn't occurred.
Examples.
"Eldin sang." Atelic; if you interrupt me before I finish singing I have still sung.
"Eldin sang 'O Holy Night'." Telic; if you interrupt me before I finish singing "O Holy Night" (a very advisable course of action, btw) I haven't sung "O Holy Night".
"Eldin sang some Christmas carols." Atelic; if you interrupt me before I finish singing "The Twelve Days of Christmas" (an extremely advisable course of action!), but after I've finished "It Came Upon A Midnight Clear" and "O Holy Night", I have still sung some Christmas carols.
"Eldin sang every Christmas carol from A to Z." Telic; if you interrupt me before I finish singing "Zion’s Daughter, O Rejoice", "Zion's King Shall Reign Victorious", and the "Zither Carol" (Alternate Title: "All Must Draw Near"), then I've only sung them all from A to Y, not from A to Z. OTOH why didn't youstop me?
Telicity, as usually understood, is part of the aktionsart, aspectual class, inherent aspect, or lexical aspect.
Aspect is an inflection (or possibly a derivation or an auxiliary) on a verb designed to show its internal temporal consistency; it differs from tense in that "pure" aspect doesn't "care" when it happened -- whether before, after, or during the speech act or some other event -- and "pure" tense cares only when it happened -- tense doesn't care what its "internal temporal consistency" is.
So the features of Duration and Repetitiveness are indeed usually considered Aspects; in fact they are usually Imperfective Aspects. (The main division in Aspects is between the Perfective ones and the Imperfective ones; the speaker uses a Perfective aspect if he or she doesn't intend to talk about the internal temporal structure of the event, and uses an Imperfective one if he or she does intend to talk about the internal temporal structure -- for instance, the beginning and/or middle and/or end of the event.)
The same Aspect marking on a verb can have different meanings depending on the verb's Aktionsart. ("Aktionsart" is German for "Sort of Action" or "Type of Action". It is also called "Aspectual Class", "Lexical Aspect", and "Inherent Aspect".) But a given Aspect marking will always mean the same thing on any two verbs of a given Aktionsart.
| This guy wrote: | | The most general approaches to classification of Lexical Aspects as individual categories make a binary distinction (e.g., stative vs. dynamic, telic vs. atelic, durative vs. punctual). Vendler's (1967) quadripartite classification of verb phrases into aspectual classes is currently the best-known and well-accepted classification.' Taking telicity as the basis of the division, Vendler (1967) categorized all English verbs into four classes with respect to the temporal properties that they encode: activities, accomplishments, achievements, and states. |
What Aeetlrcreejl means by "Aspect" I don't know; he'll have to tell us.
It's unusual in a natural language for a verb to be marked explicitly with its Aktionsart. Included in that, its unusual for it to be marked explicitly with its telicity. In most languages, "aktionsart" for verbs is like "gender" for nouns; speakers and listeners just know what the "aktionsart" is, and use that knowledge to figure out what other things mean -- other things such as the aspect-markings and various other morphemes and words.
But though it's unusual it does happen.
| Aeetlrcreejl wrote: | | Aspect and Duration/Repetitiveness are different. I used Aspect because there was no better name. |
What meanings and differences are conveyed by the various "Aspect" markings? |
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langover94
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 509
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm I can see how much I've grown intellectually since you've started this thread  .
Now that I have another polysynthetic language (Meшкрула), would you be kind enough to send that spread sheet of your case endings, Aeetlrcreejl?
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Aeetlrcreejl
Joined: 08 Jun 2007
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Location: Over yonder
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:21 am Post subject: |
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I tried, but you said your father would kill you if I got the e-mail address.
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Hemicomputer
Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 610
Location: Calgary, Alberta
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| eldin raigmore wrote: |
"Eldin sang some Christmas carols." Atelic; if you interrupt me before I finish singing "The Twelve Days of Christmas" (an extremely advisable course of action!), but after I've finished "It Came Upon A Midnight Clear" and "O Holy Night", I have still sung some Christmas carols.... |
Wouldn't that count as both telic and atelic, depending on situation? If I interrupt you during the third, you have sung some. If I interrupt you during the FIRST, you have not sung any. It could also be argued that if you are interrupted during carol #2, you have sung ONE and not SOME (but that gets into whether SOME implies plurality, which is a whole different kettle of carols).
On another note about mood, does anyone know of any natlangs that use word order to indicate mood? I'm considering that as a grammar system for Cohkao, and I want to know if it's at all plausible.
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langover94
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 509
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| Aeetlrcreejl wrote: | | I tried, but you said your father would kill you if I got the e-mail address. |
Well, he was suspicious at that time. I think it would be OK as long as you only send that one thing to me. 
I'll pm the address to you.
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eldin raigmore
Admin
Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 1621
Location: SouthEast Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Hemicomputer wrote: | | It could also be argued that if you are interrupted during carol #2, you have sung ONE and not SOME (but that gets into whether SOME implies plurality, which is a whole different kettle of carols). |
Yes, your question is more about whether "some" implies plurality than about whether the situation is telic or atelic. Or about whether "one and a fraction" is plural instead of singular. Or about whether "carols" is really a plural count-noun or a mass-noun, though in that case maybe it would still be "atelic" even if I were interrupted during the first (which I would be if I went for "the Twelve Days" first.)
| Hemicomputer wrote: | | On another note about mood, does anyone know of any natlangs that use word order to indicate mood? I'm considering that as a grammar system for Cohkao, and I want to know if it's at all plausible. |
I don't think we'll know until we see it tried.
There are other conlangers who try to indicate tense or aspect via word-order; I don't know whether they're successful yet, because I just heard of them recently, and at that time they hadn't made much progress -- or at least hadn't reported on it.
I don't know whether or not any natlang does this.
I think you should try it and let us know how it works.
(But that's just my opinion.)
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Hemicomputer
Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 610
Location: Calgary, Alberta
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| eldin raigmore wrote: | | ...it would still be "atelic" even if I were interrupted during the first (which I would be if I went for "the Twelve Days" first.) |
I see.
| elsed raigmore wrote: | ...I don't think we'll know until we see it tried.
There are other conlangers who try to indicate tense or aspect via word-order; I don't know whether they're successful yet, because I just heard of them recently, and at that time they hadn't made much progress -- or at least hadn't reported on it.
I don't know whether or not any natlang does this.
I think you should try it and let us know how it works.
(But that's just my opinion.) |
Yeah, I don't see why it wouldn't work. I have the whole system worked out now, so I might as well try!
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