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Direct/Indirect Objects

 
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Aert



Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:42 am    Post subject: Direct/Indirect Objects Reply with quote

How does your conlang deal with direct/indirect objects?

Code:
eg.   I would like you to help me
      Vblaasźl isc Źrfun V
      [I-like-(would) that you-help me] *
      /Viblːsʒɑːl Isk ʒurfʌɪn vi/

eg.   You need to find it
      Źrzl bnd Iv      
      [You-(must/need to) find it]
      /ʒurzeli bʊnd Iv/

eg.   I need you to find it for me
      Vzl isc Źrbnd Iv mhV   
      [I-need that you-find it for me]
      /vizeli Isk ʒurbʊnd Iv mʰɔɪ/ **


(I'm still working out the rules for these, but I don't think there will be any major changes.)

Thanks!

* the 'would' is similar to the conditional tense, just without the 'if' attached on the end. (Similar to Spanish -a)
** note the aspiration in mh is optional when spoken.
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StrangeMagic
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Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 640

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like you to help me.

Twao nal flob pil romo.

Twao nal flob- pil rom-o.

You me(DOB) to help-2ndPRS would to like-1stPRS.


You need to find it.

Twao zhil ayerman nap.

Twao zhil ayerman nap-.

You it(DOB) must to find-2ndPRS.


I need you to find it for me.

Twao zhil as na-em ayerman nap.

Twao zhil as na-em ayerman nap.

You it(DOB) for me(IOB) must to find-2ndPRS.
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Hemicomputer



Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 610
Location: Calgary, Alberta

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like you to help me:
Tan i ihac vtl.
/t{n i iRw{S vutaIl/
tan i ih(e)-ac vt-l
me inf help-2 want-1


You have to find it:
K is ogenac
/ku is ONEn{S/
k i-s ogen-ac
3 inf-imp find-2


I need you to find it for me:
Tan kxi i ogenac avul
/t{n kuXi i ONEn{S w{v@l/
tan k-xi i ogen-ac av-ul
1 3-dech inf find-2 need-1


Last edited by Hemicomputer on Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tolkien_Freak



Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 1231
Location: in front of my computer. always.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Kilhiryui got an orthography change, /j/ is now <j> instead of <y>.)

I would like you to help me.
Jarjaun eur mai eun.
jar-jaun eu-r mai eu-n
do-VOL me-AGENTIVE you[ACT] me-STAT

You have to find it.
Hjanjaruzag mai ken.
hjanjar-uzag mai ke-n
find-NECESSARY you[ACT] it-STAT

I need you to find it for me.
Hjanjaruzag eur mai ken euwaki.
hjanjar-uzag eu-r mai ke-n eu-wa-ki
find-NECESSARY me-AGENTIVE you[ACT] it-STAT me-REASON-BEN

The Emitarjei's no different, it's just sound changes. (At least right now.)
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killerken



Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 134
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got rather confused by the complex thematic relationships, so I now change meanings with verb forms.

I would like you to help me.

Aarno ostch citevii ler.

You(S) me(P) to-help benefiecial-indicator.
"Ler" basically means if the action were to be done it would be good for some reason.

You need to find it.

Aarno iish hursvii shemponvii dhaan.

You(S) it(Goal) to-search to-need present-indicator.

I need you to find it for me.

Osto, arno aa'ac ost isch hursvii, shemponvi dhaan.

I(S), you(S) for me it(P) to-search, to-need present-indicator.
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kyonides



Joined: 28 Aug 2008
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like you to help me.

Noe gereune klednai kes Koe. (Nedranse / Conditional)
Noe gereune sha Koe (nu) klednai Noes. (Nedranse / Conditional, subordinate clause)
Noe gerenvie klednai kes Koe. (keslinesve Ense / Courtesy Mood Present Tense)
Noe gerenvie sha Koe (nu) klednai Noes. (keslinesve Ense / Courtesy Mood Present Tense)
Noe gerensine klednai kes Koe. (keslinesve Plaense / Courtesy Mood Future Tense)
Noe gerensine sha Koe (nu) klednai Noes. (keslinesve Plaense / Courtesy Mood Future Tense)
---
---
You need to find it.

Koe planayd odreu Lesa / Disal.
You-NOM need-more-PRES to-find it-NOM (pick one of 2 different pronouns).
---
---
I need you to find it for me.

Noe mezen Koes ras odreu Lesa / Disal ves / ras / denoys Noe.
I-NOM to-need-PRES you-DAT for to-find it-NOM (1 / 2) by / for / instead of I-NOM.

Noe mezen sha Koe odraedse Lesa / Disal ves / ras / denoys Noe.
I-NOM to-need-PRES that you-NOM to-find-FUT-SUBJ it-NOM (1 / 2) by / for / instead of I-NOM.
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eldin raigmore
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Joined: 03 May 2007
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Location: SouthEast Michigan

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arpien? I don't know yet; I think it's settled by the rules I already have, but I haven't worked out exactly how they settle it yet. I have to think and analyze a little more.

Adpihi and Reptigan?
These are not "subject-prominent" languages.
They have grammatical relations, in the sense that some of their clauses have subjects, and some of those have primary objects, and some have secondary objects instead of or as well as primary objects.
But not every clause necessarily has something that's clearly its subject by having far-and-away more properties on Keenan's "Subject Properties List" than it lacks, and far-and-away more such properties than any other argument.

Instead, the core argument positions or structural cases in Adpihi and Reptigan are decided by Dowty's and Primus's "Proto-Agent Properties", "Proto-Patient Properties", and "Proto-Recipient Properties", as revised by later linguists.

These are: S, A, U, and E.
The S argument has both more (or at least as many) Proto-Agent Properties and more (or at least as many) Proto-Patient Properties than (or as) any other argument.
The A argument has more (or at least as many) Proto-Agent Properties than (or as) any other argument, but has fewer (or not more) Proto-Patient Properties than at least one other argument.
The U argument has more (or at least as many) Proto-Patient Properties than (or as) any other argument, but has fewer (or not more) Proto-Agent Properties than at least one other argument.
The E argument(s) has fewer (or not more) Proto-Agent Properties than at least one other argument, and also has fewer (or not more) Proto-Patient Properties than at least one other argument.
I haven't been able to assure myself what Primus's "Proto-Recipient"s are. As near as I can tell so far, they satisfy the following:
First, define "involvement" as: the sum of the number of Proto-Agent Properties and Proto-Patient Properties an argument has.
Then the Proto-Recipient satisfies the following:
* It's more "involved" than (or, at least as involved as) any other argument, possibly excepting the S argument, possibly also excepting the Proto-Agent, possibly also excepting the Proto-Patient.
* It has fewer (or, not more) Proto-Agent Properties than any other argument, possibly excepting the Proto-Patient.
* It has fewer (or, not more) Proto-Patient Properties than any other argument, possibly excepting the Proto-Agent.

I have no confidence that these won't sometimes contradict each other.

The basic divisions of clause-types by what sorts of "structural cases" are occupied, are:
S
A U
S E
A U E
(Supposedly a clause may have no core arguments; supposedly it may have four.)
If a clause has only one core argument that must be its S.
A clause that has an S can't have an A; a clause that has an A can't have an S; but every clause that has any participants must have either an S or an A.
A clause that has an S can't have a U; a clause that has a U can't have an S; but every clause that has any participants must have either an S or a U.
A clause that has an A must have a U; a clause that has a U must have an A.
A clause can't have more than one S.
A clause can't have more than one A.
A clause can't have more than one U.
But clauses could, conceivably, have more than one E.
If a clause has any core argument(s) that (isn't)aren't S or A or U, (it)they are all E.
Maybe there are S E E clauses, and/or A U E E clauses. I don't think I'll allow S E E E clauses, but, maybe ....

Any clause that has an S, that deserves to be called its Subject.

"Switch-reference marking" tracks "same A or different A" rather than "same Subject or different Subject", and "same U or different U" rather than "same Object or different Object".

The other function served by Grammatical Relations (such as Subject, Direct Object or Primary Object, and Secondary Object or Indirect Object) is "syntactic pivots".

Adpihi and Reptigan just have "syntactic pivots" independently of the S or A or U or E stuff.
There are at least two, and maybe three, "syntactic pivot" things.
Roughly:
The "backward-looking pivot" is the NP core argument of a main clause that has occurred as a pivot in the most recent preceding main clauses.
The "forward-looking pivot" is the NP core argument of a main clause that will occur as a pivot in the next following main clauses.
The third pivot will be that NP core argument of a main clause that occurs as a pivot in the most nearby main clauses but isn't the backward- nor forward- pivot.
(The above notion may need refinement.)

It may be that the backward-pivot is the Subject and the forward-pivot is the DO. Or it may be that the backward-pivot is the Topic and the forward-pivot is the Focus. Or maybe those ideas are statistically correlated but logically independent.
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Last edited by eldin raigmore on Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tolkien_Freak



Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 1231
Location: in front of my computer. always.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you show us some examples of this in action in Adpihi and Reptigan?
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Hemicomputer



Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 610
Location: Calgary, Alberta

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:

The P argument has...

Are you meaning to type "the U argument..."?

eldin raigmore wrote:
(Intriguingly complicated grammatical details)

Bloody hell, eldin, quit teasing us and make a thread for these already!
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Neqitan



Joined: 24 Sep 2008
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I'd want to see some Adpihi glossing.
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eldin raigmore
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Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 1621
Location: SouthEast Michigan

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hemicomputer wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
The P argument has...
Are you meaning to type "the U argument..."?
Yes. Oops! Embarassed

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
Can you show us some examples of this in action in Adpihi and Reptigan?

Hemicomputer wrote:
Bloody hell, eldin, quit teasing us and make a thread for these already!

Neqitan wrote:
Yeah, I'd want to see some Adpihi glossing.

Thanks for the inerest; and you are all correct, I have owed you for some time now. I hope to pay up soon.
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Aeetlrcreejl



Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 839
Location: Over yonder

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like you to help me.
Sni-o--am.
help-OPT-2P.SING-me(ACC).

You need to find it.
eg-o--ta.
find-OPT-2P.SING-it.

Cid-ec-ete eg-et-ta.
need-3P.SING-thee(ACC) find-INF-it(ACC).
Used to emphasise the need.

I need you to find it for me.
eg-o--ta-mī.
Find-OPT-2P.SING-it(ACC)-me(DAT).

Cid-ec-ete eg-et-ta-mī.
need-3P.SING-thee find-INF-it(ACC)-me(DAT).
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