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Kypothian

 
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Kiri



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 471
Location: Latvia/Italy

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:43 am    Post subject: Kypothian Reply with quote

Hmm, yet another conlang from my side. One of the factors for this was "no diacritics". And when I say no diacritics, I mean no diacritics at all. Very Happy Instead, I've played with the letter inventory a little bit Smile I'll show, what I mean. (And again, I'm only learning CXS and this kind of phonology-show, so there could be mistakes)

Vowels.
<a ĉ e o ĝ ı y v>
/a & E O 2 i i\ u/

Consonants.
<m n ng>
/m n N/
<p b t d k g>
/p b t d k g/
<f v ŝ s z ш з>
/f v T s z S Z/
<ц ч>
/ts tS/
<r ı l>
/4 j l/


So yes, <ı> stands for either /i/ or /j/, as well as <v> stands either for /u/ or /v/, a bit like in ancient Latin Very Happy The fun part is words like "Vvvm" Very Happy Is it /vuum/ or is it /uvum/? Very Happy I don't know! Very Happy

So, what do you think, people? Is this sound inventory good to go?
(And I only just counted that I have freakin' eight vowels Very Happy )
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Tolkien_Freak



Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 1231
Location: in front of my computer. always.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woah, you're using Cyrillic. (I like the dotless i as default (my handwriting is that way), but it might get a bit annoying to type after a while.)

The vowels look a little bit unbalanced .I don't know that I'd expect /E O/ if they're not contrasting with /e o/, and you've only got one rounded/unrounded pair (/e 2/, at the moment the weirder /E 2/). Maybe have <y> be /y/ for some balance? IDK.
(Somewhere a while back I found a great overview of the world's vowel systems. I can't find it anywhere now...)

And you do have a lot of vowels ^_^ I usually limit myself to 8, since I don't like really big vowel systems.

You've got voiced/unvoiced pairs for everything except /T/. Not that that's unnatural (it's a rather common level of imbalance), just letting you know.

Other than that, looks great! Is /N/ allowed word-initially?
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Kiri



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 471
Location: Latvia/Italy

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the first version I didn't have /d b z Z/, but I thought that would be a bit freaky, since I NEED /g/ Very Happy And this is the case where I want something naturalistic enough so it could be evolved on it's own (I'm speaking alternative language evolution and directing it in the Uralic direction. Don't know how it goes yet though)

Also, I have /ts tS/, but not /dz dZ/. Is it naturalistic? I mean, I THINK it is, and I can't bring myself to thinking of any representations for them. You see, I'm all out of Cyrillic letters that I'd like. I already went out of my way for the representation for /Z/ (In Russian it's the usual /z/, if anyone was wondering). Of course, if anyone has ideas regarding this (other scripts maybe?) I'll gladly hear them out.

The thing with vowels is that I don't get them Very Happy. To me, the "normal" vowels are those, which are found in Latvian, respectively /a & E O i u/, while everything else seems to wander around the inside of my mouth. Especially, when I'm trying to pronounce "words", I have to try several times before I get it right (or what I think is right). To top it all off, the guy pronouncing the vowels in this site, which has been the gratest help for me, by the way is driving me nuts! Geesh, I must sound like a menopausal woman during her breakdown!

Anyway, you might be right about the /y/, and I guess I'm going to do that . As for the the /2/, I just wrote it as /2/, because I have no idea, where the heck it is Very Happy It might as well be /9/ or something. I seem to pronounce it differently every time. Also, Hungarian seems to have /2/ (although they also have /e o/). Another thing is that /o/ and /O/ sound alike to me, as well as /e/ and /E/, so I was just going with the safest bet Very Happy So yeah, vowels confuse me. Save me, if you can! *pleading*
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Tolkien_Freak



Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 1231
Location: in front of my computer. always.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
Also, I have /ts tS/, but not /dz dZ/. Is it naturalistic? I mean, I THINK it is, and I can't bring myself to thinking of any representations for them.

Yeah, I think that falls under 'realistic degrees of imbalance'.

Quote:
You see, I'm all out of Cyrillic letters that I'd like. I already went out of my way for the representation for /Z/ (In Russian it's the usual /z/, if anyone was wondering). Of course, if anyone has ideas regarding this (other scripts maybe?) I'll gladly hear them out.

Noticed that ^_^
Besides digraphs, I wouldn't suggest using anything else (you could try ezh, which is basically the IPA rendering of it).

Quote:
The thing with vowels is that I don't get them Very Happy. To me, the "normal" vowels are those, which are found in Latvian, respectively /a & E O i u/, while everything else seems to wander around the inside of my mouth. Especially, when I'm trying to pronounce "words", I have to try several times before I get it right (or what I think is right). To top it all off, the guy pronouncing the vowels in this site, which has been the gratest help for me, by the way is driving me nuts! Geesh, I must sound like a menopausal woman during her breakdown!

Yeah, vowels can be weird. Took me the longest time to figure out the difference between /e o/ and /E O/.


Quote:
Anyway, you might be right about the /y/, and I guess I'm going to do that . As for the the /2/, I just wrote it as /2/, because I have no idea, where the heck it is Very Happy It might as well be /9/ or something. I seem to pronounce it differently every time. Also, Hungarian seems to have /2/ (although they also have /e o/). Another thing is that /o/ and /O/ sound alike to me, as well as /e/ and /E/, so I was just going with the safest bet Very Happy So yeah, vowels confuse me. Save me, if you can! *pleading*

AFAIK /e o/ are more common than /E O/ (I'm a bit surprised to hear that Latvian has /E O/ without /e o/, but I'm not the most knowledgeable about this stuff). I think Hungarian has /2/, I know that German <ö>, Scandinavian <ö> or <ĝ> and French <eu> are all /2/.

Of course, based on that link, I could be COMPLETELY wrong about what I think of as /E/ and /e/. (Some of the rest of it seems a bit off, though.)
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Kiri



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 471
Location: Latvia/Italy

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In what sense "a bit off"? Are you trying to imply, that what I've based my phonology is a peace of (s)crap? *exagerating much*
And yes, the /e E/ /o O/ difference is a pain in the place, where back loses it's honourable name, and I guess I do need a "real life person" to understand WTF Very Happy

Considering /E O/ in Latvian
This is what Wikipedia (and my ears) says Very Happy

Also, since I'm not using <h> for anything, I'm starting to consider applying it as a palatalisation vice, a sort of a representation of /j/ or smth Very Happy
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Tolkien_Freak



Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 1231
Location: in front of my computer. always.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
In what sense "a bit off"? Are you trying to imply, that what I've based my phonology is a peace of (s)crap? *exagerating much*

Nah, just his /e/ sounds like /ei/ almost, and his /6/ doesn't sound right at all (at least, to me). (Those are just the ones I checked.)

Quote:
And yes, the /e E/ /o O/ difference is a pain in the place, where back loses it's honourable name, and I guess I do need a "real life person" to understand WTF Very Happy

Late Latin made those distinctions. They don't sound fun to mess with (which is probably why no Romance languages keep them).

Quote:
Considering /E O/ in Latvian
This is what Wikipedia (and my ears) says Very Happy

Yeah, now that I think about it, it makes sense.
(I just still haven't been able to wrap my mind around /e/ vs. /E/.)

Quote:
Also, since I'm not using <h> for anything, I'm starting to consider applying it as a palatalisation vice, a sort of a representation of /j/ or smth Very Happy

Seems like it could work - like what Portuguese does with <nh> and <lh>?
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Kiri



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 471
Location: Latvia/Italy

PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
Kiri wrote:
In what sense "a bit off"? Are you trying to imply, that what I've based my phonology is a peace of (s)crap? *exagerating much*

Nah, just his /e/ sounds like /ei/ almost, and his /6/ doesn't sound right at all (at least, to me). (Those are just the ones I checked.)

I compared /6/ with the example on Wikipedia, and didn't hear much difference. On the other hand /E e/ and /O o/ difference can be heard pretty clearly on Wikipedia's examples

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
Kiri wrote:
Also, since I'm not using <h> for anything, I'm starting to consider applying it as a palatalisation vice, a sort of a representation of /j/ or smth Very Happy

Seems like it could work - like what Portuguese does with <nh> and <lh>?


I don't speak Prtuguese, but, based on what I checked, yes, like that.
/J/ and /L/ wouldn't be a problem, because <nh> and <lh> are pretty descriptive (as in, what else could it be?)
On the other hand, I'm not sure what to do to make /c/ and /J\/, because <th> suggests /T/, but both <kh> and <gh> suggest some kinds of rhotics or something (I'm not sure, if I'm using the term right)
On the other hand, let's say, "цh" for /c/ and "чh" for /J\/ as a pretty far call, but would it work?
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Tolkien_Freak



Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 1231
Location: in front of my computer. always.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
On the other hand, I'm not sure what to do to make /c/ and /J\/, because <th> suggests /T/, but both <kh> and <gh> suggest some kinds of rhotics or something (I'm not sure, if I'm using the term right)
On the other hand, let's say, "цh" for /c/ and "чh" for /J\/ as a pretty far call, but would it work?


I think the term you're looking for is 'guttural' ('rhotic' means 'it sounds like an r' - though I'm not sure /x G/ (what those suggest to me) are far back enough to be guttural).

Emitare uses <sj zj> for /c J\/. (Of course, that's not in line with using <h>, but it's just a suggestion.)
EDIT: Oh wait nevermind, <sj zj> is /C j\/. /c J\/ are <tj dj>.
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Kiri



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 471
Location: Latvia/Italy

PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:

EDIT: Oh wait nevermind, <sj> is /C j\/. /c J\/ are <tj>.


Es jau domāju... Oh, oops, sorry Very Happy
Anyway, I don't like /c/, plus I have no idea, how to show it, but I kinda like "чh" for /J\/, so I think I'm gonna stick with it Very Happy Also I decided to use "u" for /u/ after all. Less confusion.

As for the "a priori" thing... I'm struggling with
a) Detailed Hungarian glossary is hard to find
b) I'm not sure, if I even want to use Hungarian or any other lang, for that matter, although the story takes place in a alternative world - maybe the history of language is also different... Very Happy
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Tolkien_Freak



Joined: 26 Jul 2007
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Location: in front of my computer. always.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
Es jau domāju... Oh, oops, sorry Very Happy

I do that SO MUCH with Japanese.

Quote:
Anyway, I don't like /c/, plus I have no idea, how to show it, but I kinda like "чh" for /J\/, so I think I'm gonna stick with it Very Happy

Looks weird, but cool at the same time.

Quote:
As for the "a priori" thing...

I think you forgot to mention that before ^_^
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Kiri



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 471
Location: Latvia/Italy

PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:

Quote:
As for the "a priori" thing...

I think you forgot to mention that before ^_^


Oh, that's because I'm having the hardest time deciding.
You see, I have an alternate history, where the Roman empire didn't fall for a long time and stuff... but the story takes part in a place, where the Kypothians live, which, geographically is somewhere in Austria/Hungary.
I have alternate language evolution (because I'm the writer and I said so), so Kypothian could be virtually anything, as long as the tribe could've gone there when it was it's time.

There are two drawbacks:
a) germanic languages are boring.
b) hungarian is hard to track, and, from the looks of what little I've seen - not easy to catch.

Of course, there is an alternative - make Kypothian completely a priori, maybe making it somewhat work like Hungarian Very Happy
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Tolkien_Freak



Joined: 26 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd suggest going with making it a priori, just because having Rome around any longer than it was sounds really hard to pull off (unless you have Justinianus reconquer the West by remaining sane and not firing Belisarios).

And yeah, I know almost nothing about the history of Hungarian. Wikipedia has a medium-sized article on it, though.
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Kiri



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 471
Location: Latvia/Italy

PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
I'd suggest going with making it a priori, just because having Rome around any longer than it was sounds really hard to pull off (unless you have Justinianus reconquer the West by remaining sane and not firing Belisarios).

And yeah, I know almost nothing about the history of Hungarian. Wikipedia has a medium-sized article on it, though.


I risk sounding arrogant, but I'm the writer and I said so prettty much works for me Very Happy
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
I risk sounding arrogant, but I'm the writer and I said so prettty much works for me Very Happy


Razz
Yeah, I always assume althist ought to be as realistic as possible. I forget that sometimes it's more fun if it makes no sense.
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Kiri



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 471
Location: Latvia/Italy

PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I do to, even too much for the most part, but I'm trying to learn to take it easy. Besides, I just admire, how Adrian Tschaikovsky used this argument so shamelessly, when explaining the giant bugs on his series (I imagine it would be Serali's idea of Paradise Very Happy )
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Kiri



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 471
Location: Latvia/Italy

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've gone completely another way with this, so I'm not sure if I should post it here or make another thread...
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