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LekmeŽ - The language of the self proclaimed Dwarfs

 
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kyonides



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:07 am    Post subject: LekmeŽ - The language of the self proclaimed Dwarfs Reply with quote

LekmeŽ

Actually none of its speakers is an actual dwarf... They just believe they are as much as they think they are good craftsmen and miners... They do live in mountains, on top of them or inside the caverns... They are called the GedzaŽvo.

Vowel inventory

<a e Ž o, y> /a e is O, Ł/ (/C/ if not considered as a vowel)

Actually <o> should be a weak o /O/, more like in German...

[strike]Is /x/ the value for sounds like Bach in German? You said /C/...[/strike]

Consonant inventory

/p t d k g m n f v T s S x j h l L r w M\ ts tS Y/
<p t d k g m n f v th s sh h j h l y ŕ w ǵ z x y>

Stops /p t d k g/ <p t d k g>
Fricatives /f v s z S h/ <f v s z sh h>
Approximants /j l r w/ <j l ŕ w>
Nasals /m n/ <m n>
Affricates <z>
??? /kS tS/ <x>

The name LekmeŽ should be pronounced /lekmeis/ .

<s> is pronounced only when Ž or z is present (as in GedzaŽvo /getsaisvo/), otherwise it's never used by the GedzaŽvo.
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Last edited by kyonides on Thu May 13, 2010 6:07 am; edited 3 times in total
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...out of curiosity, when everything else is a pretty good 1:1 correspondence, why do you use <Ž> for /is/? Why not just write <is>, even if it is used so little?

And /x/ is German Bach (/bax/). It's not, however, German ich (/IC/), if that's the sound you're looking for (and you might be based on orthographizing it with a <sh>).

Quite a strange orthography you've got there too. <g> is both /g/ and /M\/, or is that a mistype?
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kyonides wrote:
LekmeŽ

Actually none of its speakers is an actual dwarf... They just believe they are as much as they think they are good craftsmen and miners... They do live in mountains, on top of them or inside the caverns... They are called the GedzaŽvo.


kyonides wrote:
Vowel inventory

<a e Ž o, y> a e is o, Ł x

Actually <o> should be a weak o, more like in German...
Put your vowels on a vowel-chart like in IPA.

No (or almost no; there's one or two controversial languages) natlang fails to have /i u a/, a close front unrounded vowel, a close back rounded vowel, and an open central unrounded vowel (though if there's only one open vowel often speakers don't care to be careful that it's central).

Tell us what they mean in Z-SAMPA or CONLANG X-SAMPA, or just plain old X-SAMPA, or on the IPA.

I don't see /i/ but I do see /y/; you have a close front rounded vowel phoneme. That's especially strange without a close front unrounded vowel phone /i/.

Did you want a vowel /Y/? That'd be a near-close near-front rounded vowel phoneme (or some might say a lax close front rounded vowel), the rounded version of /I/. If you have both /y/ and /Y/, odds are /Y/ is short and /y/ is long, or something like that (maybe /Y/ is relaxed tongue root and /y/ is advanced tongue root, or /Y/ is nasal and /y/ is oral, or something). If you want a /Y/, shouldn't you also have an /I/ (near-close near-front unrounded lax vowel)?

What do Ž and Ł mean? In http://wiki.penguindeskjob.com/Z-SAMPA#8-bit_vowel_transcription it appears /Ž/ is a close-mid back unrounded tense vowel (the unrounded counterpart of /o/, also written /7/), while /Ł/ is a close front rounded tense vowel (the rounded counterpart of /i/, also written /y/). Is that what you meant?

What do you mean by "weak o"? There's a close-mid back rounded tense vowel /o/, an open-mid back rounded tense vowel /O/, and a mid near-back rounded lax vowel /o\/; did you mean one of those?

German contains an open-mid back rounded vowel /O/, a long close-mid back rounded vowel /o:/, a near-close back rounded vowel /U/, and an open-mid front rounded vowel /9/.

Norwegian, Woisika, and Khalkha contain vowel sounds you might have meant also. Consider also Sebei, and Bai.

Looking at all the rounded vowels that aren't front, aren't close, and aren't open, you could have meant any of / Y U\ U 8 o 2\ o\ 3\ O / I would assume you meant one of / 8 3\ o\ o O /, probably one of / o\ o O /. Which one is right?

What are your front unrounded vowels? How many are there? What heights do they come at? Close, near-close, close-mid, mid, open-mid, near-open, open? You should have a close (high) one, shouldn't you? Certainly if you have two or more, one of them should be close, shouldn't it?

What are your back rounded vowels? How many are there? What heights do they come at? Close, near-close, close-mid, mid, open-mid, near-open, open? You should have a close (high) one, shouldn't you? Certainly if you have two or more, one of them should be close, shouldn't it?

Is each of your front unrounded vowels matched by a back rounded vowel at the same height? Is each of your back rounded vowels matched by a front unrounded vowel at the same height?

What are your open (low) vowels? How many are there? What backnesses do they come at? Front, near-front, central, near-back, back? Are they rounded or unrounded? You should have a central unrounded one, shouldn't you?

Do you have any front rounded vowels? If so, how many? And what heights do they come at? If you have one, you should have a close (high) one, shouldn't you? Certainly if you have two or more, one of them should be close, shouldn't it? Does each front rounded vowel accompany a front unrounded vowel at the same height?

Do you have any back unrounded vowels? If so, how many? And what heights do they come at? If you have one, you should have a close (high) one, shouldn't you? Certainly if you have two or more, one of them should be close, shouldn't it? Does each back unrounded vowel accompany a back rounded vowel at the same height?

If you have both front rounded vowels and back unrounded vowels, do they come as matched pairs? That is, is each front rounded vowel matched by a back unrounded vowel at the same height, and vice-versa?

Do you have any near-front vowels? If so, are they all unrounded? How many do you have? What heights do they occur at? If you have one, you should have a high one, shouldn't you? Certainly if you have two or more, one of them should be close, shouldn't it? Does each near-front vowel accompany a front vowel at the same height?

Do you have any near-back vowels? If so, are they all rounded? Or are they all unrounded? How many do you have? What heights do they occur at? If you have one, you should have a high one, shouldn't you? Certainly if you have two or more, one of them should be close, shouldn't it? Does each near-back vowel accompany a back vowel at the same height?

If you have both near-front vowels and near-back vowels, do they come in matched pairs, each near-front vowel being matched to a near-back vowel of the same height, and vice-versa?

If you have near-front vowels you shouldn't have front rounded vowels, should you? Likewise if you have front rounded vowels you shouldn't have near-front vowels, should you?

If you have near-back vowels you shouldn't have back unrounded vowels, should you? Likewise if you have back unrounded vowels you shouldn't have near-back vowels, should you?

Do you have any central vowels? If so, are they all unrounded? Or are they all rounded? Or is each unrounded one accompanied by a rounded one at the same height and vice-versa? How many do you have? What heights do they occur at? If you have one, you should have an open (low) one, shouldn't you? Or if not, you should have a close (open) one, shouldn't you? If you have two or more, one of them should be close, and one should be open, right? Or, at least, one should be close or one should be open? Certainly if you have three or more, surely one should be close and one should be open, right? Does each central vowel accompany a front vowel at the same height? Does each central vowel accompany a back vowel at the same height?

kyonides wrote:
Is x the value for sounds like Bach in German?
Yes, mostly. (There are dialects and accents, and sometimes when a person is speaking fast, then what that sounds like depends partly on what they say next. But almost always, "yes" is the right answer.)

What's it doing as a vowel?

Vowels are "central oral resonants"; "central" meaning "not lateral", that is, the airstream or soundstream comes over the center of the tongue rather than around its sides (so <L> and <R> don't count as vowels); "oral" means "not nasal", that is, half or more of the airstream or soundstream comes out the mouth rather than out the nose; "resonant" means the airstream/soundstream is not blocked (so there's no stop or plosive), and is not constricted enough to produce audible or tangible "friction" or turbulence (so it's not a fricative).

You may be able to have /x/ as a syllable nucleus, but you can't have it as a vowel.

/x/ is a voiceless velar fricative.

kyonides wrote:
Consonant inventory

/p t d k g m n f v T s S x j h l L r w M\ ts tS Y/
<p t d k g m n f v th s sh h j h l y ŕ w g z x y>

Stops /p t d k g/ <p t d k g>
Fricatives /f v s z S h/ <f v s z sh h>
Approximants /j l r w/ <j l ŕ w>
Nasals /m n/ <m n>
Affricates <z>
??? /kS tS/ <x>

The name LekmeŽ should be pronounced /lekmeis/ .

<s> is pronounced only when Ž or z is present (as in GedzaŽvo /getsaisvo/), otherwise it's never used by the GedzaŽvo.

Okay, let's see:
All of them are pulmonic egressive, right?
Stops/plosives are /p t d k g/; there's no voiced bilabial stop /b/, but the voiceless ones are bilabial /p/, alveolar /t/, and velar /k/, while the voiced ones are alveolar /d/ and velar /g/.
Nasals are /m n/, bilabial and alveolar.
Only one trill, alveolar /r/. Or did you mean it to be the retroflex tap/flap /r`/? Or the alveolar approximant /r\/? Or the retroflex approximant /r\`/?
Fricatives /f T s S x h v z/. As "fricatives" you listed only /f v s z S h/; voiced are only labiodental /v/ and alveolar /z/, while voiceless are labiodental /f/, alveolar /s/, postalveolar /S/, and glottal /h/.
But in your inventory you also listed /T x/; these are voiceless fricatives, a dental spirant /T/ (different from the alveolar sibilant /s/) and a velar /x/.
The lateral approximants you listed are /l L/. /l/ is alveolar and /L/ is palatal. Unless you meant /Y\/ instead of the vowel /Y/; that's a uvular lateral approximant.
The other approximants you listed are /j M\ w/, palatal /j/, velar /M\/, and labiovelar /w/.
Affricates you could have included could include / pp\) bB) pf) bv) tT) dD) ts) dz) tS) dZ) kx) gG) kW) qX) / and others that look more exotic when written.
Since you don't have /p\/ or /b/ or /B/ or /D/ or /Z/ or /G/ or /q/ or /X/ or /W/, you probably won't have affricates involving those.
So your affricates would likely come from among this set;
/ pf) tT) ts) dz) tS) kx) /. You already mentioned / ts) tS) / I do not understand why you'd spell any affrixate except /kx)/ with <x>, nor any affricate except /dz)/ with <z>.

That leaves /Y/. /Y/ is a vowel; a near-close near-front rounded vowel, like a rounded /I/. Why did you list it as a consonant?
Maybe you meant:
Uvular lateral approximant /Y\/
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kyonides



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried to use X-SAMPA here, maybe a forgot a few things about how to use it...

eldin raigmore wrote:
kyonides wrote:

Is x the value for sounds like Bach in German?

Yes, mostly. (There are dialects and accents, and sometimes when a person is speaking fast, then what that sounds like depends partly on what they say next. But almost always, "yes" is the right answer.)

What's it doing as a vowel?

Vowels are "central oral resonants"; "central" meaning "not lateral", that is, the airstream or soundstream comes over the center of the tongue rather than around its sides (so <L> and <R> don't count as vowels); "oral" means "not nasal", that is, half or more of the airstream or soundstream comes out the mouth rather than out the nose; "resonant" means the airstream/soundstream is not blocked (so there's no stop or plosive), and is not constricted enough to produce audible or tangible "friction" or turbulence (so it's not a fricative).

You may be able to have /x/ as a syllable nucleus, but you can't have it as a vowel.

/x/ is a voiceless velar fricative.

Well, it happened something similar to what Kexyana experimented, y had two assigned values, sometimes the vowel turns into a v. v. fricative in front of some other characters. In Kexyana it happened whenever you found a character like d, t, m... Let's say it's a way some conscholars would prove that Kexyana has influenced LekmeŽ in some way.

<ǵ> /M\/ So g has no longer a second value assigned to itself.
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kyonides



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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I made some minor changes on the first post. Now it should be clear what I meant with German Bach (more like Ich) /C/ and weak o /O/.
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