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Triphthongs (and Diphthongs)

 
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 8:50 pm    Post subject: Triphthongs (and Diphthongs) Reply with quote

Look up triphthongs and diphthongs in natlangs; and look up how they're written in natscritps (the native orthography of the natlangs), if they are.

Diphthongs are, in a way, like affricates (not so much the hetero-organic or co-articulated ones), pre-affricated obstruents (almost all stops), aspirated obstruents (almost all voiceless stops), pre-aspirated obstruents (almost all voiceless stops), prenasalized obstruents (almost all voiced stops), and nasally-released obstruents (apparently all stops, almost all voiced stops): and, possibly, other things I've forgotten about.

What makes these all similar is the difficulty of telling whether it's two phonemes or one.

Apparently that difficulty doesn't exist for the native speakers of languages which have such phonemes. But an L2 learner of the language, whose L1 doesn't have any such phonemes, may have such a difficult time recognizing that there's only the one phoneme instead of two, that they don't make progress in learning the language.

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Anyway:
It's my impression that most diphthongs are either pre-palatalization or pre-labialization or post-palatalization or post-labialization.
That is, the diphthong phoneme sounds like one of:
/jV/ or /wV/ or /Vw/ or /Vj/
for some vowel V.
In fact, looking at the UPSID Sound Selection, among languages that have phonemic diphthongs,
92% of those diphthong phonemes are either
* a non-close vowel followed by a close vowel (60%), or
* a close vowel followed by a non-close vowel (25%), or
* an unrounded vowel followed by a rounded vowel (22%), or
* a rounded vowel followed by an unrounded vowel (21%).

Another 7% are two rounded vowels, and another 4% are two close vowels.

A non-close vowel followed by a close vowel might be considered "post-palatalization";
a close vowel followed by a non-close vowel might be considered "pre-palatalization";
an unrounded vowel followed by a rounded vowel might be considered "post-labialization";
a rounded vowel followed by an unrounded vowel might be considered "pre-labialization".

A good 50% of the diphthongs, or of the languages with diphthongs, are two unrounded vowels; but only 11% are two non-close vowels, and only about 4% are two non-close unrounded vowels.

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Some possible diphthong phonemes include:
/ui/ or /wi/ or /uj/, /oi/ or /oj/, /ai/ or /aj/, /ei/ or /ej/,
/iu/ or /ju/ or /iw/, /ou/ or /ow/, /au/ or /aw/, /eu/ or /ew/,
/uo/ or /wo/, /io/ or /jo/, /ao/, /eo/,
/ia/ or /ja/, /ie/ or /je/,
/ua/ or /wa/, /ue/ or /we/,
/oa/, /oe/,
/ae/, /ea/.

If your conlangs have any of these diphthongs, how do you write them in your conscripts?

Can your conspeakers tell them all apart?

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I know less about phonemic triphthongs (or triphthongal phonemes). The Wikipedia article is about it.

It is my impression that a triphthong's middle vowel can't be rounded unless either the first or the last vowel is also rounded; otherwise it won't be perceived as a triphthong, but rather as a post-labialized diphthong followed by a vowel or a vowel followed by a pre-labialized diphthong.

Likewise it is my impression that a triphthong's middle vowel can't be close (high) unless either the first or the last vowel is also close; otherwise it won't be perceived as a triphthong, but rather as a post-palatalized diphthong followed by a vowel or a vowel followed by a pre-palatalized diphthong.

So some possible triphthongs might be:
/iuo/ or /juo/, /oui/ or /ouj/,
/uiu/ or /wiu/ or /uiw/ or /wiw/,
/uia/ or /wia/, /uie/ or /wie/, /uio/ or /wio/,
/aiu/ or /aiw/, /eiu/ or /eiw/, /oiu/ or /oiw/,
/uou/ or /wou/ or /uow/ or /wow/,
/uoi/ or /woi/ or /uoj/ or /woj/, /uoa/ or /woa/, /uoe/ or /woe/,
/iou/ or /iow/ or /jou/ or /jow/, /aou/ or /aow/, /eou/ or /eow/,
/uau/ or /uaw/ or /wau/ or /waw/, /ueu/ or /uew/ or /weu/ or /wew/,
/iai/ or /iaj/ or /jai/ or /jaj/, /iei/ or /iej/ or /jei/ or /jej/,
/oao/, /oeo/,
/jaw/, /jew/, /waj/, /wej/,
and so on.

If your conlangs have any of these triphthongs, how do you write them in your conscripts?

Can your conspeakers tell them all apart?

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In all of the above questions;
Do the answers differ depending on the kind of script? that is, is it different for featurographies than for alphabets, for alphabets than for syllabaries, for syllabaries than for abugidas, for abugidas than for pointed abjads, for pointed abjads than for abjads, for alphasyllabaries than for alphabets or syllabaries or abugidas, and so on?

I would figure if your script has no way of indicating a vowel it would be difficult to write a diphthong or triphthong; so an abjad, without points, might have trouble.

OTOH, logographies don't write sounds; they write morphemes. So the questions above don't apply so much to them.

They're really mostly applicable to scripts in which one can indicate a phoneme (including a vowel phoneme) or a syllable.
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Last edited by eldin raigmore on Tue May 04, 2010 8:46 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 11:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Triphthongs (and Diphthongs) Reply with quote

Interesting post. Hadn't thought about most of these questions ^_^

Emitare doesn't actually have true diphthongs - the constituent parts are considered separate syllables in everything except stress rules. (All PEM diphthongs merged, and consonant deletion is rare in PEM > CE. Pretty soon the few that exist will become single syllables.)

Quote:
In all of the above questions;
Do the answers differ depending on the kind of script? that is, is it different for featurographies than for alphabets, for alphabets than for syllabaries, for syllabaries than for abugidas, for abugidas than for pointed abjads, for pointed abjads than for abjads, for alphasyllabaries than for alphabets or syllabaries or abugidas, and so on?

I would very much expect so. I would expect most syllabaries to use separate characters for syllables with diphthongs (I would expect Japanese's spelling of 'ai' as 'a-i' to be an anomaly), and pointed abjads as well to save space, and maybe abugidas. The rest I would expect to write each constituent part out.

Quote:
I would figure if your script has no way of indicating a vowel it would be difficult to write a diphthong or triphthong; so an abjad, without points, might have trouble.

True. You could approximate the on-glide or off-glide by writing /j/ or /w/, though, if you have those letters.

EDITED because I forgot how I dealt with diphthongs in CE! Plh - don't even know the language I made...


Last edited by Tolkien_Freak on Mon May 03, 2010 10:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just for being accurate I have to say something.
On the Wikipedia article about triphthongs, it lists Latvian, showing the examples of "tie" ['tiea] and "ko" ['kuoa]. It actually surprised me, because in Latvian they are considered dipthongs, and the supposed pronunciation would be indicated without the middle vowel, thus ['tia] and ['kua]. I guess you could only tell the difference, if someone (like me or anyone else) actually said those sounds to you. I just felt like I have to say that, if you told a Latvian scholar, that Latvian has thriphthongs, I'm not sure, whether they would really agree. Smile
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
Just for being accurate I have to say something.
On the Wikipedia article about triphthongs, it lists Latvian, showing the examples of "tie" ['tiea] and "ko" ['kuoa]. It actually surprised me, because in Latvian they are considered dipthongs, and the supposed pronunciation would be indicated without the middle vowel, thus ['tia] and ['kua]. I guess you could only tell the difference, if someone (like me or anyone else) actually said those sounds to you. I just felt like I have to say that, if you told a Latvian scholar, that Latvian has thriphthongs, I'm not sure, whether they would really agree. :)
That's probably why someone put "citation needed" on those two examples.
The other "citation needed" is on the last Vietnamese diphthong, [ui̯ʊ̯] as in khuỵu 'to fall on one's knees'[citation needed].
Join the discussion of that article and you can post your doubts in the "discussions" section. Actually, you can be bold and take them out, provided you also put your reasons in the "discussion" section. But then if someone puts them back in, leave the article-proper alone until the discussion is settled.
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killerken



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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri: You should edit the wikipedia article.
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I don't think I will, since I can't be too sure about this thing I'm saying ^_^ It wouldn't be the first time when what they teach you in primary school differs from what universal linguists think about things.
Because I can't know - maybe they really are triphthongs, that Latvian scholars just don't consider triphthongs...
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Examine them yourself - do they sound like triphthongs to you? Do you hear that extra vowel there in the middle?

(Of course, /iea/ and /uoa/ sound fairly hard to keep as triphthongs anyway...)
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
Oh, I don't think I will, since I can't be too sure about this thing I'm saying ^_^ It wouldn't be the first time when what they teach you in primary school differs from what universal linguists think about things.
Because I can't know - maybe they really are triphthongs, that Latvian scholars just don't consider triphthongs...
Who would know better than Latvian scholars?
Also, if you still have your elementary-school book (or can find any other book that supports what you say), you can cite it in the article, or in the discussion of the article.
I really think that if you can find any such book you should definitely at least post something in the discussion of that article.
Remember that no-one yet seems to have cited any book that says what that article says about Latvian triphthongs. So maybe the article-writer was wrong.
Also remember that whoever put that info in there is just as likely to be as much of an amateur as you are.
So, sign up and give it a go -- especially if you can find a source you can cite.
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kyonides



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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Kexyana has both of them. Common triphthongs are /*y*/ where * is any common vocal sound from a-u and sometimes Latin ae or a weak o before /y/. The explanation of /y/ is more complicated than the other because it depends on the region or kingdom the conpeople live because some of them consider /y/ as an /x/ like Spanish trabajo while others would describe it as an /y/ like Greek epsilon. Even so there are people who pronounce it as a stressed /i/.

I'm sorry, I forgot a lot of what I've read about X-SAMPA and IPA so I can't describe those sounds properly.
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Serali
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Examples:

Baiso

Niora ( Andanese ):



You can clearly see what's going on so you don't need an explanation. Mr. Green As for how it would handle tripthongs you would just write the third vowel on the vowel carrier and be done with it.

But since Andanese hardly even has any tripthongs it isn't something they worry about......as apposed to something completely alphabetic:



I think this is the most obvious....pretty scripties! Mr. Green


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