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Musings on Prepositions
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Kiri:
Kiri wrote:
... I can't see any way they could possibly be the same as adverbs
So I guess in Latvian they are clearly two different parts-of-speech.
What do you call prepositions (if that's what Latvian has) or postpositions (if that's what Latvian has) or inpositions or circumpositions in Latvian?
Why is "apstāklis" sometimes translated as "case"?

@T_F:
Tolkien_Freak wrote:
Indeed - 'in', 'at, 'on', etc.
How would that be theoretically possible, unless you have adverbs that can also be used as adpositions (i.e. two separate meanings)?

Well, just as some natural languages don't distinguish between the word-class of nouns and the word-class of adjectives (they have "substantives" -- which can be used as if nouns or as if adjectives -- instead of two separate parts-of-speech), and some don't distinguish between the word-class of verbs and the word-class of adjectives (they express all the adjectival ideas as a subset of "stative verbs"), and some don't distinguish between the word-class of adjectives and the word-class of adverbs (they have "modifiers" -- words that can be used either as adjectives or as adverbs -- instead of two separate parts-of-speech); I thought it possible that some natlang(s) might not distinguish between the word-class of adverbs and the word-class of adpositions.

Yes, that would mean that several members of that word-class could be used either as adpositions or as adverbs. Perhaps it could have exceptional members that could only be used as adpositions or could only be used as adverbs; I don't know.

There are some natlangs that distinguish quite clearly between what we might call "ad-adjectival adverbs", that modify adjectives (and adjectival phrases), and other adverbs that can modify verbs and adverbs and predicates and clauses and sentences and adverbial phrases.

Probably there are some natlangs (though I don't know for sure) that distinguish clearly between "ad-verbal adverbs" that can modify verbs and predicates and clauses and sentences, and other adverbs that can modify adjectives and adjectival phrases and adverbs and adverbial phrases.

So there are languages where the word-class of what we call "adverbs" is actually two different parts-of-speech.

--------------------------------------------

@Kiri;
Kiri wrote:
Do you mean those little words like "with" or "at", when you say "adposition"?
Yes.
See http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/adposition and http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsAnAdposition.htm and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adposition for information about adpositions. Also see http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsARelator.htm.

Adpositions can be either:
* prepositions (if they always occur just before their complement, that is, just before the noun-phrase which is their object),
or
* postpositions (if they always occur just after their complement, that is, just before the noun-phrase which is their object),
or
* inpositions (if they sometimes must occur inserted within their complement, but not always just before nor always just after the head-noun of their complement noun-phrase),
or
* "circumpositions", a term used to describe two different phenomena; namely,
** ambipositions, words that can be used either as prepositions or as postpositions, sometimes with different meanings,
and
** obligatorily-paired preposition-and-postposition combinations.

Most languages either have many more prepositions than any other kind of adposition (they're called "prepositional languages"), or have many more postpositions than any other kind of adposition (they're called "postpositional languages"). Many have more than one adpositions but no dominant type. Many have no adpositions at all, or at most one. A few unusual languages have many more inpositions than any other kind of adpositon.

Typically a language has either lots of prepositions and a few postpositions, or lots of postpositions and a few prepositions.

English, for instance, has no inpositions, no circumpositions (of either kind), several prepositions, and few, but at least one, postposition (namely "ago").
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Latvian has an awful lot of prepositions and a few postpositions (At the moment I can only think of one or two).

The sole word "abstāklis" has a lot of uses and meanings. In grammar, it shouldn't be translated as "case". I think. Very Happy
And then, we have a thing that confuses a lot of high-school students:
"Apstāklis" is a syntactic(?) term reffering to the purpose of a word or frase in a given sentence.
"Apstākļa vārds" is a word-class, which can be translated as "adverb".

I must ask, how do the substantives work? Can you give an example of some sorts?
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
I must ask, how do the substantives work? Can you give an example of some sorts?
Well, for instance, in French, in essence you can say "the old" when you mean "the old guy". Or you can say "an open" when you mean "an open set". There may be better examples, or different examples, in French or in other languages.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
@T_F:
~~~

Yes, that would mean that several members of that word-class could be used either as adpositions or as adverbs. Perhaps it could have exceptional members that could only be used as adpositions or could only be used as adverbs; I don't know.

I would expect most of the adverb class to be without the second sense, and a special subclass that could take objects.
Unless the vast majority of non-adpositional adverbs were marked with morphology on other kinds of speech, and the adverb/adposition category was considered core vocab. (Which I might rather consider plain adpositions that can be used without objects, rather than adverbs that sometimes get them.)

I would expect a lot of English-style verb+adposition compound phrases in such a lang.

Quote:
There are some natlangs that distinguish quite clearly between what we might call "ad-adjectival adverbs", that modify adjectives (and adjectival phrases), and other adverbs that can modify verbs and adverbs and predicates and clauses and sentences and adverbial phrases.

Probably there are some natlangs (though I don't know for sure) that distinguish clearly between "ad-verbal adverbs" that can modify verbs and predicates and clauses and sentences, and other adverbs that can modify adjectives and adjectival phrases and adverbs and adverbial phrases.

I've wanted to try something like that for a while - maybe I'll include it in my next project (when I finish my current one ^_^'')

Hadn't thought about ago that way - that's cool!

Quote:
Well, for instance, in French, in essence you can say "the old" when you mean "the old guy". Or you can say "an open" when you mean "an open set". There may be better examples, or different examples, in French or in other languages.

AFAIK that's just pro-dropping the implied noun, it's just called something else. Though it may be a property of those langs that you can use the adjective to mean its noun counterpart (i.e. Latin 'senis' meaning 'oldness' rather than just 'old'), which would be an example of what you're talking about - but I don't remember if that's a general rule or not.
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Serali
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
Well it makes no sense to me, but that is due to my lack of knowledge rather than anything else Smile
So, keep on going Very Happy


Same here.

But you're not insane.


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