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Vreleksá
The Alurhsa Word for Constructed: Creativity in both scripts and languages
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achemel
Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 556
Location: up for debate
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 Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:00 am Post subject: 25 |
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Hey, it's been a while since I've logged on, but I thought I'd take the opportunity to wish everyone who celebrates it a Merry Christmas.  メリークリスマス, sirgjodal eemicein, hôn a suenmi, mèri crismas. Feliz navidad, joyeux noël, Frohe Weihnachten, Gleðileg jól og farsælt nýtt ár, natale hilare et annum faustum, god jul och gott nytt år. Pardon any mistakes, haha.
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ddamachel, tadvaradcel, ra cel, lashel, hemnalg, nomah |
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Serali
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Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 929
Location: The Land Of Boingies
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| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:23 am Post subject: |
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It's been a while for me too. Life got in the way again. Anyway:
This is what I got:
HP: The Half Blood Prince DVD
A Journal Set
Another Heart Necklace ( to add to my collection )
A Heart Ring
3 packs of glass gems ( to add to my collection )
Numerous dice ( to add to my collection )
Christmas Boingies ( there were some in the tree ) 
메리 크리스마스! 聖誕快樂!
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eldin raigmore
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Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 1621
Location: SouthEast Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:18 am Post subject: |
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KMGNGTWRTTHSSFTWRBBLCLHBRW
MRRYCHRSTMSNDHPPYNWYR
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Serali
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Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 929
Location: The Land Of Boingies
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| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| eldin raigmore wrote: | KMGNGTWRTTHSSFTWRBBLCLHBRW
MRRYCHRSTMSNDHPPYNWYR |
What? I only got the last part.
boingy
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Hemicomputer
Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 610
Location: Calgary, Alberta
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| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:33 am Post subject: |
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Krismás šwilyuks!
Mauta çan er Kristot kîrni.
Merry Christmas. And a belated blessed Solstice to those of you who observe.
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Bakram uso, mi abila, / del us bakrat, dahud bakrita! |
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achemel
Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 556
Location: up for debate
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| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:37 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like you had a good Christmas, Serali. (^_^)
_________________
I have some small knowledge of:
English, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Spanish, French
I would like to learn:
Italian, Norwegian, Gaelic
Main conlangs:
ddamachel, tadvaradcel, ra cel, lashel, hemnalg, nomah |
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Serali
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Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 929
Location: The Land Of Boingies
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| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| achemel wrote: | | Sounds like you had a good Christmas, Serali. (^_^) |
Yup! ^^
This boingy wishes you a Merry Christmas.
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Tobo deu ne lenito sugu? - You kissed a frog?! |
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killerken
Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 134
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:23 am Post subject: |
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Merry Christmas, everyone, even though it is now 12:22 AM on the 26th as I write this. What does the first line say, Eldin? The only thing I can think of is Hebrew for the last bit: HBRW.
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eldin raigmore
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Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 1621
Location: SouthEast Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| killerken wrote: | | Merry Christmas, everyone, even though it is now 12:22 AM on the 26th as I write this. What does the first line say, Eldin? The only thing I can think of is Hebrew for the last bit: HBRW. |
Which do you need more -- vowels or spaces?
K M GNG T WRT THS S F T WR BBLCL HBRW
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Hemicomputer
Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 610
Location: Calgary, Alberta
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| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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Kay iM GoiNG To WRiTe THiS aS iF iT WeRe BiBLiCaL HeBReW?
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killerken
Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 134
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:47 am Post subject: |
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Ah ha! Very clever! I can only hope Hebrew has fewer vowels than English. Or maybe has one vowel that's much more common than the others.
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eldin raigmore
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Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 1621
Location: SouthEast Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| killerken wrote: | | Ah ha! Very clever! I can only hope Hebrew has fewer vowels than English. |
Don't know about Hebrew, but some Semitic languages have only three vowels. As for written Hebrew, when "pointed" as in the Masoretic texts (very-much post-Biblical), there are only three different signs for vowels, which isn't the same as saying there are only three vowels.
| killerken wrote: | | Or maybe has one vowel that's much more common than the others. |
I don't know.
Biblical Hebrew was written without vowels, without spaces between words, and without any difference between uppercase and lowercase.
No wonder people argue about what it meant.
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Kiri
Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 471
Location: Latvia/Italy
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I haven't really seen too many people arguing about the Old Testament (which is indeed written in Hebrew), but more about the New (which, as far as I know, is written in somewhat Greek  ) |
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Tolkien_Freak
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 1231
Location: in front of my computer. always.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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MC everybody! (I would have posted sooner, but I was off in Arizona.)
'Somewhat Greek' sounds like a good name for it ^_^
AFAIK, Hebrew has 5 vowels. |
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killerken
Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 134
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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In my translation (NIV) there are a few footnotes that say something to the 'effect of "the meaning of this word is uncertain". Usually they're things like units of measurement or specific trade words that aren't used in every day speech, so their meanings are forgotten.
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yssida
Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 253
Location: sa jaan lang
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| eldin raigmore wrote: |
I don't know.
Biblical Hebrew was written without vowels, without spaces between words, and without any difference between uppercase and lowercase.
No wonder people argue about what it meant. |
Modern Hebrew I think has more vowels than three (and contemporary dialects of Arabic, though classical Qur'anic Arabic most likely had three vowels).
I wonder how they'd know which vowel combination to substitute for the unpointed text (but I'd imagine it would be easier than the example eldin gave in English)
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eldin raigmore
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| yssida wrote: | | I wonder how they'd know which vowel combination to substitute for the unpointed text |
According to the late Jaroslav Pelikan, they'd heard it read aloud and remembered; and/or, they'd heard it translated into Aramaic and put in the vowels and spaces that would make it mean that.
However, according to Pelikan, the standard opinions about which vowels went where and whether spaces went where, had changed between the time of the Targum (Second Temple (516 BCE to 70 CE) to early Middle Ages (late first millenium, i.e. before 1000 CE)), the Septuagint (third century BCE to first century BCE, that is, 300 BCE to 1 BCE), and the time of the Masoretes (between the 7th and the 11th centuries CE, that is, between 601 CE and 1099 CE).
So the fact is nobody knows exactly what some parts of the Hebrew Bible originally were meant to mean. That's not counting the bits that are lost, like Samuel's age when he died (1 Sam 13:1), and like 1 Sam 14:41 where several versions have | Quote: | | And Saul saith unto Jehovah, God of Israel, Give Thummim; and Jonathan and Saul are captured, and the people went out. |
instead of the Septuagint's | Quote: | | And Saul said to the Lord: O Lord God of Israel, give a sign, by which we may know, what the meaning is, that thou answerest not thy servant to day. If this iniquity be in me, or in my son Jonathan, give a Urim: or if this iniquity be in thy people, give Thummim. And Jonathan and Saul were taken, and the people escaped. |
Now, naturally, for much of the Hebrew Bible, people have a pretty good idea what it probably meant. But there are several parts where nobody knows for sure.
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Baldash
Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 86
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| eldin raigmore wrote: | | Don't know about Hebrew, but some Semitic languages have only three vowels. |
I don't know any Semitic language that has only three vowels, unless you disregard vowel length, which you may, in which case Standard Arabic has /a a: i i: u u:/. Modern Hebrew has five (the same as in Spanish) or maybe six (if you have /@/ in your dialect) with no vowel length, Biblical Hebrew had probably more.
| eldin raigmore wrote: | | As for written Hebrew, when "pointed" as in the Masoretic texts (very-much post-Biblical), there are only three different signs for vowels, which isn't the same as saying there are only three vowels. |
Do you mean when not pointed? The unpointed text used to some degree consonants to reflect the presence of certain vowels, such as yodh for /i:/ or /e:/, waw for /u:/ or /o:/, or word final he' for various, often /a/. Also, with the exception of /u:/ (as the prefix meaning "and"), all words start with a consonant, if nothing else with a glottal stop written with 'alef. The pointed text, on the other hand, distinguishes twelve different vowels. It's possible that not all these twelve vowels were phonemic.
Unpointed Arabic uses three consonants to indicate each of the three long vowels, 'alif for /a:/, waw for /u:/, and yadh for /i:/.
In my very limited experience, Modern Hebrew uses more frequently consonants for vowels than Biblical Hebrew. E.g. אלוהים (modern) vs. אלהים (biblical), where the extra waw in the modern version stands for modern /o/ and biblical /o:/.
| eldin raigmore wrote: | | Biblical Hebrew was written without vowels, without spaces between words, and without any difference between uppercase and lowercase. |
I am note sure, but I think Hebrew did indicate word boundaries, contrary to what was common for other ancient languages, I don't know if it was with spaces, but at least at one time with dots, to compensate for the ambiguity of not marking vowels.
And as consonants had a more prominent role (also due to the phonotactics) in Biblical Hebrew than in English, Hebrew was harmed less by writing only consonants than English would have been. |
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eldin raigmore
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Joined: 03 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Baldash wrote: | | I don't know any Semitic language that has only three vowels, unless you disregard vowel length, which you may, in which case Standard Arabic has /a a: i i: u u:/. |
Yes.
| Baldash wrote: | | Modern Hebrew has five (the same as in Spanish) or maybe six (if you have /@/ in your dialect) with no vowel length, Biblical Hebrew had probably more. |
Thanks.
| Baldash wrote: | | Do you mean when not pointed? The unpointed text used to some degree consonants to reflect the presence of certain vowels, such as yodh for /i:/ or /e:/, waw for /u:/ or /o:/, or word final he' for various, often /a/. Also, with the exception of /u:/ (as the prefix meaning "and"), all words start with a consonant, if nothing else with a glottal stop written with 'alef. The pointed text, on the other hand, distinguishes twelve different vowels. It's possible that not all these twelve vowels were phonemic. |
That may be; perhaps I was just wrong. I think I was thinking of the yodh/waw/he' thing.
| Baldash wrote: | | Unpointed Arabic uses three consonants to indicate each of the three long vowels, 'alif for /a:/, waw for /u:/, and yadh for /i:/. |
Like that.
| Baldash wrote: | | I am not sure, but I think Hebrew did indicate word boundaries, contrary to what was common for other ancient languages, I don't know if it was with spaces, but at least at one time with dots, to compensate for the ambiguity of not marking vowels. |
I think that "at one time" was not the earliest. Maybe Hebrew developed the habit of "interpuncts" (or whatever) earlier than most other ancient languages, but AIUI (and I'm not an expert) there was a time when significant books in the Tanakh were written with no such indication of word boundaries. (Possibly, that was after the time when word-boundaries were indicated, for all I know. Latin was first written with interpuncts and then without; you'd think things would usually go the other way, but obviously sometimes they didn't.)
| Baldash wrote: | | And as consonants had a more prominent role (also due to the phonotactics) in Biblical Hebrew than in English, Hebrew was harmed less by writing only consonants than English would have been. |
Definitely so. I think that was the point.
KMGNGTWRTTHSSFTWRBBLCLHBRW
MRRYCHRSTMSNDHPPYNWYR
or
K M GNG T WRT THS S F T WR BBLCL HBRW
MRRY CHRSTMS ND HPPY NW YR
or
OKAYIMGOINGTOWRITETHISASIFITWEREBIBLICALHEBREW
MERRYCHRISTMASSANDHAPPYNEWYEAR
are probably all harder to figure out in English than something equivalent in Hebrew. (But even in English, if you have either the vowels or the word boundaries you can figure it out pretty easily.)
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Tolkien_Freak
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 1231
Location: in front of my computer. always.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| THOUGHTHISMAYBEABOUTEQUALLYUNDERSTANDABLEINENGLISHCLASSICALLATINWASOFCOURSEWRITTENLIKETHIS |
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