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Chapter I of the Gospel according to St. John (vv. 1-3)

 
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:38 pm    Post subject: Chapter I of the Gospel according to St. John (vv. 1-3) Reply with quote

1. From the very beginning there has always been Reason. Reason belonged to God, and Reason was part of God.
2. God's Reason existed before anything else began to exist.
3. Through Reason, God made everything which exists, or ever has existed, or ever will exist. Nothing has ever existed or will ever exist except what God made with Reason.
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is interesting, since in the Latvian translation, instead of "reason" there is "Word", so it goes like this:

1. In the beginning there was Word, and Word was with (belonged to) God, and Word was God.
2. It was in the beginning (belonged to) with God.
3. Through Him everything was made, and nothing, that exists, has been made without Him.

Quite a difference, I must say...
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I know.
I was interested in co-ordinating John 1:1-3 with Proverbs 8:22-31a.
"Logos" might be translated "word" or "wisdom"; less conventionally it might also be translated "reason".

Which of the following do you have in your Latvian translations?

Loģika
Logos
Iemesls
Pētījums
Gudrības
Vārds

How many versions in Latvian can you find John 1:1-3 and Proverbs 8:22-31 in?

Do you also fluently speak and read any other languages you can find versions in?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, here's Proverbs 8 as rendered by me:

Proverbs 8
In Praise of Reason
1 With great understanding,
Reason is calling out
2 as she stands at the crossroads
and on every hill.
3 She stands by the city gate
where everyone enters the city,
and she shouts:
4 "I am calling out
to each one of you!
5 Good sense and sound judgment
can be yours.
6 Listen, because what I say
is worthwhile and right.
7 I always speak the truth
and refuse to tell a lie.
8 Every word I speak is honest,
not one is misleading
or deceptive.
9 "If you have understanding,
you will see that my words
are just what you need.
10 Let observation and knowledge
mean more to you
than silver
or the finest gold.
11 Reason is worth much more
than precious jewels
or anything else you desire."

Reason Speaks
12 I am Reason -- Observation is my closest friend;
I possess knowledge
and sound judgment.
13 If you respect the LORD,
you will hate evil.
I hate pride and conceit
and deceitful lies.
14 I am strong,
Reason
and I offer
sensible advice
and sound judgment.
15 By my power kings govern,
and rulers make laws
that are fair.
16 Every honest leader rules
with help from me.
17 I love everyone who loves me,
and I will be found by all
who honestly search.
18 I can make you rich and famous,
important and successful.
19 What you receive from me
is more valuable
than even the finest gold
or the purest silver.
20 I always do what is right,
21 and I give great riches
to everyone who loves me.
22 From the beginning,
I was with the LORD.
I was there before He began
23 to create the earth.
At the very first,
the LORD gave life to me.
24 When I was born,
there were no oceans
or springs of water.
25 My birth was before
mountains were formed
or hills were put in place.
26 It happened long before God
had made the earth
or any of its fields
or even the dust.
27 I was there when the LORD
put the heavens in place
and stretched the sky
over the surface of the sea.
28 I was with Him when He placed
the clouds in the sky
and created the springs
that fill the ocean.
29 I was there when He set
boundaries for the sea
to make it obey Him,
and when He laid foundations
to support the earth.
30 I was right beside the LORD,
helping Him plan and build.
I made Him happy each day,
and I was happy at His side.
31 I was pleased with His world
and pleased with its people.
32 Pay attention, my children!
Follow my advice,
and you will be happy.
33 Listen carefully
to my instructions,
and you will be wise.
34 Come to my home each day
and listen to me.
You will find happiness.
35 By finding me, you find life,
and the LORD will be pleased
with you.
36 But if you don't find me,
you hurt only yourself,
and if you hate me,
you are in love with death.
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

About the Gospel:

The usual and typical translation of Logos is Vārds, and that's the one used in John's.

There aren't many translations in Latvian, so they don't really differ too much. The differences are mostly linguistical or adjusted for the modern Latvian to be able to understand, since the classical version is still the one of Gluck at the time of Reformation.

So, here is what Proverbs 8:22-31 look like in Latvian (with my improfessional translation):

22 Es esmu bijusi Tā Kunga rīcībā jau Viņa ceļu pašā sākumā; iekāms Viņš kaut ko radīja, es biju pie Viņa, jau no pirmlaikiem.
(I have been in The Lords hand already at the very beginning of His roads; before he created anything, I was with Him.)

23 Es esmu ielikta un pastāvu jau no mūžības, no paša sākuma, iekāms pat vēl zemes nebija.
(I have been put [into] and I exist since eternity, since the very beginning, before there was even earth[land].)

24 Kad vēl nebija dziļumu, es biju jau dzimusi, kad ūdens avoti vēl neburbuļoja savā plūsmā.
(When there were no depths yet, I was born already, when springs didn't purl yet in their ways.)

25 Iekāms vēl nebija ielikti kalnu pamati un pakalni nebija radušies, es jau pastāvēju,
(Before the fundamentals of mountains were put into place and before the hills were created, I existed already,)

26 iekāms Tas Kungs vēl nebija izveidojis zemi, nedz arī to, kas ir uz zemes, pat arī vēl ne kalnus zemes virsū.
(before The Lord hadn't created the earth yet, nor what is on the earth, nor even the mountains on the face of the earth.)

27 Kad Viņš darināja debesis, es biju tur klāt, tāpat tad, kad Viņš pāri visiem dziļumiem pārstiepa pāri Savu augsto debess jumu.
(When He was making heaven[sky], I was there with Him, also, when He stretched His high sky over all depths.)

28 Kad Viņš augšā nostiprināja padebešus, bet zemes dziļumos drošās vietās iestiprināja avotus un akas,
(When He put clouds in their place, but in the depths of land, in safe places, put springs and wells,)

29 kad Viņš novilka robežas jūrai un ūdeņiem, lai tie nepārkāptu Viņa pavēles un neplūstu šīm robežām pāri, kad Viņš nostiprināja pamatus pašai zemei,
(when He put the border of sea and waters, so they obeyed his orders and didn't go over these borders, when He secured the fundamentals of earth itself,)

30 tad es biju pie Viņa kā palīdze darbos un to kārtotāja, un man bija ik dienas savs prieks, un es vienmēr līksmojos Viņa priekšā,
(then I was with Him as His helper in His works and their arranger, and I had my own jow every day, and I always rejoiced in front of Him,)

31 un es līksmojos Viņa zemes virsū, un mans prieks ir joprojām pie cilvēku bērniem.
(and I rejoiced on the face of His earth, and my joy is still with the human children.)

I'm sorry for my indecent English.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
About the Gospel:

The usual and typical translation of Logos is Vārds, and that's the one used in John's.

There aren't many translations in Latvian, so they don't really differ too much. The differences are mostly linguistical or adjusted for the modern Latvian to be able to understand, since the classical version is still the one of Gluck at the time of Reformation.

So, here is what Proverbs 8:22-31 look like in Latvian (with my improfessional translation):
Is that based on the Hebrew version? On the Aramaic version? on the Septuagint Greek version (a translation of the Hebrew verson)? on the Latin Vulgate version (a translation of the Septuagint version)? Or what?

Kiri wrote:
22 Es esmu bijusi Tā Kunga rīcībā jau Viņa ceļu pašā sākumā; iekāms Viņš kaut ko radīja, es biju pie Viņa, jau no pirmlaikiem.
(I have been in The Lords hand already at the very beginning of His roads; before he created anything, I was with Him.)

23 Es esmu ielikta un pastāvu jau no mūžības, no paša sākuma, iekāms pat vēl zemes nebija.
(I have been put [into] and I exist since eternity, since the very beginning, before there was even earth[land].)

24 Kad vēl nebija dziļumu, es biju jau dzimusi, kad ūdens avoti vēl neburbuļoja savā plūsmā.
(When there were no depths yet, I was born already, when springs didn't purl yet in their ways.)

25 Iekāms vēl nebija ielikti kalnu pamati un pakalni nebija radušies, es jau pastāvēju,
(Before the fundamentals of mountains were put into place and before the hills were created, I existed already,)

26 iekāms Tas Kungs vēl nebija izveidojis zemi, nedz arī to, kas ir uz zemes, pat arī vēl ne kalnus zemes virsū.
(before The Lord hadn't created the earth yet, nor what is on the earth, nor even the mountains on the face of the earth.)

27 Kad Viņš darināja debesis, es biju tur klāt, tāpat tad, kad Viņš pāri visiem dziļumiem pārstiepa pāri Savu augsto debess jumu.
(When He was making heaven[sky], I was there with Him, also, when He stretched His high sky over all depths.)

28 Kad Viņš augšā nostiprināja padebešus, bet zemes dziļumos drošās vietās iestiprināja avotus un akas,
(When He put clouds in their place, but in the depths of land, in safe places, put springs and wells,)

29 kad Viņš novilka robežas jūrai un ūdeņiem, lai tie nepārkāptu Viņa pavēles un neplūstu šīm robežām pāri, kad Viņš nostiprināja pamatus pašai zemei,
(when He put the border of sea and waters, so they obeyed his orders and didn't go over these borders, when He secured the fundamentals of earth itself,)

30 tad es biju pie Viņa kā palīdze darbos un to kārtotāja, un man bija ik dienas savs prieks, un es vienmēr līksmojos Viņa priekšā,
(then I was with Him as His helper in His works and their arranger, and I had my own jow every day, and I always rejoiced in front of Him,)

31 un es līksmojos Viņa zemes virsū, un mans prieks ir joprojām pie cilvēku bērniem.
(and I rejoiced on the face of His earth, and my joy is still with the human children.)

I'm sorry for my indecent English.
It's beautiful! I don't think you need to apologize.
Thanks. Very Happy
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Last edited by eldin raigmore on Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure actually. I think it's from Hebrew, but I can't be sure on that Wink
I mean, the old Gluck translation was from German, I think, but I think the 1965 translation (the one most of us now use) is from Hebrew.

But I must thank you, Eldin, you have once again made a new entry to my imaginary "Fun Facts" drawer Smile
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yay more thread necroing! (Ah, my boring life.)

1. Njamai eyu ryu, Eryumeruyu ryu, Eryuruyu ryu.
beginning-INESS be-PAST word.STAT, God-PROX.COP-PAST-and word.STAT, GOD.COP-PAST-and word.STAT.
2. Njamai Eryumeru lera.
beginning-INESS God-PROX.COP-PAST person-DECL.
3. Lereze inatu keljö, lerezeruliu inatuyu e kelju.
person-DECL-INST make-PAST thing-UNIV.STAT, person-DECL-INST.COP-NEG-ADV make-PAST-and be.ATT thing-NULL.STAT.

I used the standard 'word' here, partly because I don't have a word for 'reason' yet, and partly because I think it's 'word' here on analogy/reference to all the other mentions of the 'Word of God' elsewhere.
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:

1. Njamai eyu ryu, Eryumeruyu ryu, Eryuruyu ryu.


Oh, this one seems almost like a tongue twister Very Happy
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The last phrase is the worst ^_^
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Hemicomputer



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I imagine Christianity never really caught on with the Emitare. Nobody could take it seriously, with all these tongue twisters in the scripture! Razz
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Razz

Yeah, it doesn't help that Eryu means God, ryu means word, Eryuru is 'was god' and -yu is and. (IIRC the similarity between God and word was intentional, the fact that the -COP-PAST-and ending comes out so similar was not.)
So if you label r=1 and y=2 you have E12u1u2u12u.

Öü!
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hemicomputer wrote:
I imagine Christianity never really caught on with the Emitare. Nobody could take it seriously, with all these tongue twisters in the scripture! Razz


Not if the Emitare have a very serious attitude to tongue twisters! Or maybe they would really see the scripture as a collection of fun tongue twisters?
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