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TC: There were never any "good old days".

 
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:08 pm    Post subject: TC: There were never any "good old days". Reply with quote

(From "Ultimate" by Gogol Bordello)


There were never any good old days!
It's today! It's tomorrow!
It's a stupid thing we say
Cursing tomorrow with sorrow.
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Hemicomputer



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holxws:
Júvanev helm xi úenkóm!
Ukúéjúv kómónun! Tóxî kómónun!
Jî ord tâd tsîr ksílun kómón
Tóxî kricált macikxálț.


júvan-ev helm xi úen-kóm
ukúé:júv kóm-ón-un tó:xî kóm-ón-un
jî ord tâd tsîr ksí-l-un kóm-ón
tó:xî kric-ált macik-xálț

day-pl good past.remote neg-be
now:day be-3-pl future:morning be-3-pl
a thing stupid which say-1-pl be
future:morning curse-gerund pain/sorrow-ins

EDIT: Thanks graciously for the links, elden. I've elected to use the colon, mainly because it looks less jumbled, but also because it seems to be preferred. I'll look into it myself, and change the gloss further if I find otherwise.


Last edited by Hemicomputer on Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:18 pm; edited 6 times in total
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hemicomputer wrote:
Is there a "proper" glossing method for portmanteaus?
That is a damn' good question.
I'll look into it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT:
I'm back.
http://www.sfb632.uni-potsdam.de/~d1/sfb632_guidelines/isis7.htm says:
Quote:
In the case of portmanteau morphemes (i.e. morphemes that fuse more than one grammatical functions), it usually makes no sense to indicate boundaries in the morphemic transcription; however, the different grammatical functions can be read off the GLOSS layer:


http://www.uni-erfurt.de/sprachwissenschaft/personal/lehmann/CL_Publ/IMG.PDF says:
Quote:
It does, however, happen that the L1 text contains a combination of two morphemes, but no boundary is shown between them. Various motivations for this are conceivable, be it that the position of the oundary is not clear or irrelevant, be it that the analyst does not want to disfigure L1 orthography with boundary symbols. In such cases, a colon in the IMG is a hint at a morpheme boundary existing, but not shown in the L1 line (R13). The purpose of R13 is to allow the analyst to forgo a segmentation while still saving R1 and insuring biuniqueness of the other boundary symbols. Several examples may be seen in E1. The colon is also used to render a portmanteau morph, e.g. French au ‘DAT:DEF’. More on this in section 4.5.

Quote:
The ‘greater than’ sign has two advantages here: it is iconic, and it dispenses with the use of function labels such as ‘SBJ, OBJ, ACR, UGR’ (simply ‘2>1’ in E13). It has the disadvantage that the same symbol is used for discontinuous and infixed material, which may lead to conflicts. This case must be kept distinct from a portmanteau morph, viz. when two crossreference categories that generally each have their own morphological slot fuse in one morph occasionally. There R13 applies.

Quote:
R13. A morpheme boundary not shown in the L1 text is indicated by a colon (:) in the IMG. This applies also to portmanteau morphs.

You're probably best off looking it up yourself, rather than relying on my quotes.
http://opus.kobv.de/ubp/volltexte/2007/1419/pdf/ISIS07.pdf looks to be a better-formatted version of the first ISIS document I quoted.

In general it looks like one can separate the meanings of a portmanteau via a : or a > or a &. But this is only when the L1 (the language from which one is translating) doesn't have different morphemes for the two meanings; though I think it does apply to this case.

Also, it seems to apply mostly to affixes other than roots, for instance noun-endings that fuse two or more of case, gender, number, and person, or verb-agreement prefixes that fuse the gender and/or number and/or person of both the agent and the patient, etc. In this case, you're talking about roots, so I think although you can use the rules that have been published, you'll be going beyond their published examples. (But odds are some other user of those rules has run into the same thing, and with a natlang-to-other-natlang translation yet.)

And, it looks like they prefer the colon : for the type of use you need here; that is, provided I've understood correctly -- which I can't guarantee.
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Hemicomputer



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drumu:
Sekreluvimub slairuv!
Ni radu! Ni slaftak!
Ni nülek brilitehą
Slaftak maisetarü zavütą.


sekre-luvi-m-ub sla-ir-uv
ni radu ni sla-ft-ak
ni nül-ek brili-t-e-(h)a-(nasalization)
sla-ft-a-k maiset-arü zavü-t-a-(nasalization)

good-day-PL-NEG rise-PAST.ETERNAL-NEG
it today it rise-FUT-NOUN
it stupid-thing say-PRES-which-1-PL
rise-FUT-NOUN sorrow-INS curse-PRES-1-PL


Last edited by Hemicomputer on Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great! Thanks!
Can you transcribe it into your conscript -- Drumu's native orthography?
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kyonides



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spanish: (my very own version)

ˇNo hubo nunca unos buenos días de antańo!
ˇEs hoy! ˇEs el mańana!
Es algo tonto que decimos
Maldecir el mańana con penurias.
(Basically, it's a literal translation...)

Kexyana: (obviously, it's my very own version)

Rolyo nin einyna Teyna anvernya!!
Rol re ses plare. / Rol re thes rolse plare. / Rol kefivo re plare.
Thel nu Ninsin(a)dissa sikeuna
Saiskesh kur Plarederzo.

to be(3)-3rd PERS-PAST pronoun-neg. good-pl. day-pl. before/last
to be(3)-3rd PERS-PRES today and(1)-conj. tomorrow. /
to be(3)-3rd PERS-PRES today and(2)-conj. to be-3rd PERS-FUT tomorrow. /
to be(3)-3rd PERS-PRES both today tomorrow.
to be(1)-3rd PERS-PRES our(contracted) no-sense-thing to-said-adj.
to curse-impersonal-that-conj. with tomorrow-pain/sorrow.
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Last edited by kyonides on Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Hemicomputer



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
Great! Thanks!
Can you transcribe it into your conscript -- Drumu's native orthography?
If/when I create such a script, I'll try to get this written. Meanwhile, I will get the Holxws translation done in the Holxws abjad.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hemicomputer wrote:
If/when I create such a script, I'll try to get this written. Meanwhile, I will get the Holxws translation done in the Holxws abjad.
Good!
(I didn't mean to pressure you; you're already ahead of me!)
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Hemicomputer



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And here's the Holxws native orthography!


eldin raigmore wrote:

I didn't mean to pressure you...
Please do pressure me! It's the only way I seem to get anything done.
eldin raigmore wrote:
you're already ahead of me!
In quantity perhaps, but not quality (judging by what you have posted here).
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kyonides wrote:
Kexyana: (obviously, it's my very own version)

Rolyo nin einyna Teyna anvernya!!
Rol re ses plare. / Rol re thes rolse plare. / Rol kefivo re plare.
Thel nu Ninsin(a)dissa sikeuna
Saiskesh kur Plarederzo.

to be(3)-3rd PERS-PRET pronoun-neg. good-pl. day-pl. before/last
to be(3)-3rd PERS-PRES today and(1)-conj. tomorrow. /
to be(3)-3rd PERS-PRES today and(2)-conj. to be-3rd PERS-FUT tomorrow. /
to be(3)-3rd PERS-PRES both today tomorrow.
to be(1)-3rd PERS-PRES our(contracted) no-sense-thing to-said-adj.
to curse-impersonal-that-conj. with tomorrow-pain/sorrow.
I'm assuming "-PRET" means "preterite"?
Is that different from "past"?
If not, maybe using "-PAST" instead of "-PRET" would be a good idea, to not get confused with "-PRES" and "-PERS".

What do the numbers in parentesis mean in "to be(3)" and "to be(1)" and "and(1)" and "and(2)"?

Should the line
Thel nu Ninsin(a)dissa sikeuna
have a 1st person plural in it somewhere?

Thanks!
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kyonides



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
kyonides wrote:
Kexyana: (obviously, it's my very own version)
Rolyo nin einyna Teyna anvernya!!
...
Thel nu Ninsin(a)dissa sikeuna
...
to be(3)-3rd PERS-PAST pronoun-neg. good-pl. day-pl. before/last
...
to be(1)-3rd PERS-PRES our(contracted) no-sense-thing to-said-adj.
to curse-impersonal-that-conj. with tomorrow-pain/sorrow.

...
If not, maybe using "-PAST" instead of "-PRET" would be a good idea, to not get confused with "-PRES" and "-PERS".

Corrected... for some weird reason I changed that before I posted it, I don't know what I was thinking back then.

eldin raigmore wrote:
What do the numbers in parentesis mean in "to be(3)" and "to be(1)" and "and(1)" and "and(2)"?

Should the line
Thel nu Ninsin(a)dissa sikeuna
have a 1st person plural in it somewhere?

Thanks!

To_be[1] = thei # permanent qualities
To_be[2] = mai # temporary and temporal qualities, the latter isn't as common as the former
To_be[3] = roi # location, time
To_be[4] = vreu # health

and[1] = ses
and[2] = sesh
and[3] = shes

Ses is used if the conjugands are nouns, adjectives, maybe even adverbs (if really deemed necessary).

Sesh is used if the conjugands are 2 or more dependent clauses.

Shes (s turns into sh for emphasis purposes) is used if those conjugands are 2 main clauses not nouns, adjectives, etc.


Thel nu / no Ninsin(a)dissa sikeuna

Nu - my / No - our, but my conpeople would actually choose the first option since they're not used to speak in such general terms regarding stupidity unless they want to insult the audience...

OT

Now to be and and look more like Ruby arrays that are being pushed some values to a specific location or slot, he, he, he.
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Last edited by kyonides on Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:23 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Hemicomputer



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kyonides wrote:
...Now to be and and look more like Ruby arrays that are being pushed some values to a specific location or slot, he, he, he.

What are Ruby arrays? What does this have to do with Kexyana? Confused I'm confused.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kyonides wrote:

To_be[1] = thei # permanent qualities
To_be[2] = mai # temporal qualities
To_be[3] = roi # location, time
To_be[4] = vreu # health


Thanks.

So thei and mai are predicators; roi is a locator; and vreu has something to do with health, not that I understand it exactly. (I suppose I'd need to see it used.)

About to_be[2]=mai ; do you mean "temporary" instead of "temporal"?

About to_be[3]=roi ; in your translation you've used it as an existence marker. Is "time-locator" synonymous (or nearly so) with "existence-marker" in your 'lang?

You've divided your predicators into two words, one for permanent, essential qualities and one for temporary qualities.

Languages often do the same for locators; there's a locator to say that something is in a place it's almost always been and can be expected to stay there almost from now on; and a different locator to use when something is, just at the moment, visiting a certain locale. For instance, "My mother is[3] in the hospital" would be the first type if she works there, or if she is an invalid; but it would be the second type if she has just gone there for some tests or to get a broken bone set.

kyonides wrote:

and[1] = ses
and[2] = shes

Ses is used if the conjugands are nouns, adjectives, maybe even adverbs (if really deemed necessary). Shes (s turns into sh for emphasis purposes) is used if those conjugands are 2 clauses not nouns, adjectives, etc.

I think I see. "And[1]= ses" is used to conjoin nouns and most noun-like phrases (including adjectives and adverbs, especially if they are single words). "And[2] = shes" is used if the conjugands are clauses, rather than phrases smaller than a clause, such as noun-phrases and adjective-phrases.

Your language has some very interesting features! Cool
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sun:
Vokje kihig les völet!
Di zaj völ! di völvon!
Di non goş hösluki dujuding sekang
Völvon burjetsin hufeȥaljadetek.

vokje ki-hig les völ-et
di zaj völ di völ-von
di non goş höslu-ki du-ju-ding sek-ang
völ-von burjet-sin hufe-ȥaljad-etek

NEG be-PAST good day-pl
3.N.sg this day 3.N.sg day-POSTESS.TEMP
3.N.sg indef.N stupid thing-ACC.N 3.N.pl-ERG.N-GEN say-PROG
day-POSTESS.TEMP sorrow-CAUS bad-talk-GERUND


Last edited by Hemicomputer on Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:56 am; edited 4 times in total
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks!

Hemicomputer wrote:
3.unknowngender* this day 3.N day-SUC**
3.unknowngender* indef.N stupid thing-ACC 3.E.pl-ERG-GEN say-PROG
day-SUC sorrow-CAUS bad-talk-GERUND

*Surely there's a better way to gloss this.
**This is meant to be "successive" case. Is SUC proper?


* Maybe use the epicene or common gender? If you mean the language has a gender for "I don't know what gender this thing ought to be". OTOH if you mean it has a gender and you, the conlanger, haven't decided yet what gender you want to put it in, maybe you should just attach a note saying so.

** I cannot find a "successive case" in either the EUROTYP guidelines or the Leipzig Glossing Rules. It's also not listed in Wikipedia's list of grammatical cases. Why not look in the Leipzig glossing rules -- or in Christian Lehmann's more complete set of interlinear morphemic glossing rules -- for the meaning of this case, and see what name and what abbreviation they've listed for it? Or the EUROTYP guidelines or the Wikipedia's list. Meantime, of course, it would help us all if you'd explain what "successive case" means, since we can't look it up.

Thanks!
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Hemicomputer



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:

* Maybe use the epicene or common gender? If you mean the language has a gender for "I don't know what gender this thing ought to be".
Yes that's what I meant. I guess I could call it epicene, thanks.

eldin raigmore wrote:
** I cannot find a "successive case" in either the EUROTYP guidelines or the Leipzig Glossing Rules. It's also not listed in Wikipedia's list of grammatical cases.
That would be because, as I just remembered, I made that term up for lack of a better one. There is likely a proper name for it.
eldin raigmore wrote:
Meantime, of course, it would help us all if you'd explain what "successive case" means, since we can't look it up.
It is the opposite of antessive, i.e. referring to thins that happen after something. Used here with "day", it give the meaning of "tomorrow," literally something like "day after (today)."

eldin raigmore wrote:
Thanks!
Thank YOU.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hemicomputer wrote:
.... That would be because, as I just remembered, I made that term up for lack of a better one. There is likely a proper name for it. .... It is the opposite of antessive, i.e. referring to thins that happen after something. Used here with "day", it give the meaning of "tomorrow," literally something like "day after (today)."
Most likely "postessive", then. Tabasaran has a case named "postessive". The EUROTYP guidelines say to abbreviate it "postess".

But they also say it's a "local" case. (Maybe in all European languages it is. The EUROTYP guidelines don't show an "antessive" case.)

According to Wikipedia, though, there are languages which have cases whose label is "temporal (name of more familiar case)", such as "temporal dative" or "temporal distributive"; or "(name of more familiar case)-temporal", like "dative-temporal" or "distributive-temporal".

The best version of the Leipzig glossing rules I could find also lists only "postessive", not "antessive", and also thinks it's a local case rather than a temporal case.

http://ark.wz.cz/cidarke/mnoun.html is about a 'lang (Literary Arkian, a conlang) which has both a postessive spacial and a postessive temporal case which are marked differently from each other.

I can't find how Leipzig glossing rules, or Christian Lehmann's rules, or EMELD's Best Practices, or EUROTYP guidelines, say to mark temporal cases as opposed to spacial cases.

I think your case should be called "postessive-temporal" or something like that; and the abbreviation for it should be "postess", or some variant thereof that shows it's temporal instead of spacial if you also have a spacial postessive.

Look in http://lingweb.eva.mpg.de/fieldtools/linguaQ.html#morphology at 2.1.1.6 and its subtopics. Maybe that'll help; especially if compared with all of the rest of 2.1.1 and its subtopics.
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Emitare reduxed (which is almost done from a grammar standpoint):

Euru elae yure irinuljö!
Irini! Eötjirini!
Ölhyo ryure tjanae rü
Ösjiriu ularyulu eötjina.

/eM4M elae jM4e i4inMK\2
i4ini e2ci4ini
2Kjo 4jM4e canae 4y
2Ci4iM Mla4jMlM e2cina/

be-NEG-PAST good-ADJ old-ADJ day-UNIV.STAT
day.this.COP tomorrow.COP
me-GEN.ACT say-ADJ foolish-ADJ thing(speech).COP
cry-ADV curse-AND tomorrow.STAT

'Today' is literally 'this day', 'tomorrow' is a contraction of 'coming day'.
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vaijerīna:
Wassan bonn swas perwe ba pere!
N’nesswa pere! N’asswa pere!
Aum restoran attes dirram,
n’asswu ar an tristu horxam.

It's kinda boring, that among all the mind-twisters you all have, my language is kinda simple Very Happy
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kyonides



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine isn't that mind-twister... or is it guys?

BTW, I added another verb to the to be list...

To_be[1] = thei # permanent qualities
To_be[2] = mai # temporary and temporal qualities, the latter isn't as common as the former
To_be[3] = roi # location, time
To_be[4] = vreu # health - being sick, healthy, dizzy, nervous, anguished
To_be[5] = jaei # to be capable of (being), to know something for sure, to believe in something without any doubts

It's not a real new definition of to be, but a just a weird variant of thei and mai...

And no, there's no other locator than the time-locator verb roi.
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