Vreleksá

eldin raigmore

Preliminaries:

[edit 2/24/09]: there's a new preliminary, number 4. Also, Part III has been added.[/edit 2/24/09]

(0) Take a look at http://wals.info/feature/132, http://wals.info/feature/133, http://wals.info/feature/134, and http://wals.info/feature/135.
See especially this.
They seem to divide most natlangs' basic colorterm lexicons into the following types, based on how many terms they have for the "primary" colors (white, black, red, yellow, green, blue):

white-red-yellow, black-green-blue
white, red-yellow, black-green-blue
white, red, yellow, black-green-blue
white, red-yellow, green-blue, black
white, red, yellow, green, black-blue
white, red, yellow, green-blue, black
white, yellow, red, green, blue, black

Or that's my current understanding; maybe I'm wrong. It doesn't seem like every language in their sample is in one of the above sets.

Green and blue each gets a basic color term (as in English, for example).
A green-or-blue category get a basic color term (“grue”).
A black-or-green-or-blue category gets a basic color term.
A black-or-blue category gets a basic color term and green gets a separate basic color term
A yellow-or-green-or-blue category gets a basic color term.
There is a term for yellow-or-green and a term for blue.
"Not Applicable"; One or both of "green" or "blue" fails to get a basic colorterm.

Red and yellow
Red-or-yellow
Red and yellow-or-green-or-blue
Red and yellow-or-green
Either red or yellow (or both) not included in any basic color term

2a had 61 languages of their sample;
1a had 30 languages of their sample;
3b had 9 languages of their sample;
2b had 6 languages of their sample;
3a had 5 languages of their sample;
4a, 5c, and 7e each had 2 languages of their sample; and
3c, 6d, and 2e each had 1 language of their sample.
(Total 120 languages in sample.)

(1) This questionnaire applies without changes only if your conspeech-community has human-like colorvision, lives on an Earthlike planet with a modern-Earth-like atmosphere, and are illuminated by a Sun-like star.
If they are like most diurnal non-mammals on Earth they will probably be able to see wavelengths shorter than 350 nanometers. If they are like most cold-blooded animals on Earth they will probably be able to see wavelengths longer than 780 nanometers.
If the atmosphere is different they may be able to see wavelenghts shorter than 200 nanometers.

(2) Much of this questionnaire is worded in a way that just sort of "assumes" that Berlin & Kay's paper on colorterms is completely correct. That does not imply that I believe it is (though in truth I am not sure I believe the objections either); and it certainly doesn't mean that you can't answer the questionnaire if your conlang doesn't fit Berlin & Kay's conclusions for natlangs. Just tell us what your conlang does.

(3) I'm mostly looking for one-word colorterms. My favorites will be "basic": monomorphemic and underived (the word's principle use is in the semantic field of color, not in some other semantic field like names of fruit or flowers or things like the sea or the sky or the earth or leaves). I'll also be interested in one-word colorterms that are monomorphemic although derived (like "orange" or "violet" or "cielo" or "midori"), or that are underived although polymorphemic (if you have one-word terms for "pastel blue" or "dark green", for instance).
Then I might also be interested in two-word terms for which both words are basic (monomorphemic and underived); then in two-word terms for which both words are monomorphemic and one word is basic (like "Navy blue"), or both words are underived and one word is basic.
Then there could be some one-word terms that are both derived and polymorphemic, I suppose; and maybe two-word terms in which one word is monomorphemic but derived and the other is underived but polymorphemic; and so on.

(4) All of the questionnaire is only about "matte colors", which consist of hue, lightness, and saturation. The questionnaire makes no mention of:
* transparency;
* glossiness or shininess;
* pattern (spotted, striped, checked, plaid, etc.);
* texture (smooth, grainy, streaky, etc.);
or anything else but hue, saturation, and lightness.
This doesn't mean you can't tell us about it. Just be sure to note that it's something not about "matte colors".
Also, be sure you do answer about your 'langs "matte colors". English and the other native languages of members here, have terms for textures, patterns, gloss, and transparency/translucency; but Berlin&Kay didn't consider them in their survey, and English has eleven "basic" colorterms for matte colors. So don't forget to say everything about matte colors first, and then say the stuff about texture &c.

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I. First eight colors.
The first eight colors I want to consider are the following:
this black-ish color #000000
this blue-ish color #0000FF
this green-ish color #00FF00
this cyan-ish color #00FFFF
this red-dish color #FF0000
this magenta-ish color #FF00FF
this yellow-ish color #FFFF00
this white-ish color #FFFFFF

Twenty-eight sets of questions, one for each pair of those eight colors:
* Does your language have a separate colorterm for each of the two colors in that pair?
* Does your have a single colorterm that applies to both of the colors in that pair?
* Is there one (or both) of the colors in that pair for which your language does not have a basic colorterm?
* For each of the colorterms involved in the preceding questions;
** Which are basic? (monomorphemic and underived)?
** Which are monomorphemic but derived?
** Which are underived but polymorphemic?
** If any of the colorterms in the above questions is not a one-word term, explain the two-word term as best you can.

II. First twenty-seven colors.
The first twenty-seven colors includes the first eight colors and nineteen more colors. There are pastel colors half-way between white and one of the six hues above; there are dark colors half-way between black and one of the six hues above; there are mixed hues half-way between two of the six hues mentioned above; and there is medium gray, halfway between black and white.

A lot of the questions in part I will imply the answers to questions in part II; if two colors in part I share a colorterm, then almost certainly a color halfway between them in part II will share the same term. So if, for instance, your language has just one term for white #FFFFFF and yellow #FFFF00, it will use the same term for the light-yellow #FFFF80.

Here are the new colors:

this grey-ish color #808080

this sky-blue-ish color #8080FF
this pastel-green-ish color #80FF80
this pastel-cyan-ish color #80FFFF
this pink-ish color #FF8080
this pastel-magenta-ish color #FF80FF
this light-yellow-ish color #FFFF80

this navy-blue-ish color #000080
this dark-green-ish color #008000
this dark-cyan-ish color #008080
this dark-red-dish color #800000
this dark-magenta-ish color #800080
this "brown"(?)-ish color #808000

this orange-ish color #FF8000 halfway between red #FF0000 and yellow #FFFF00
this chartreuse-ish color #80FF00 halfway between yellow #FFFF00 and green #00FF00
this bluish-green color #00FF80 halfway between green #00FF00 and cyan #00FFFF
this greenish-blue color #0080FF halfway between cyan #00FFFF and blue #0000FF
this bluish-purple color #8000FF halfway between blue #0000FF and magenta #FF00FF
this reddish-purple color #FF0080 halfway between magenta #FF00FF and red #FF0000

For each two colors in part I that have separate colorterms, look at the color in part II that is halfway between them.
* Does your conlang have a separate colorterm for the mix-color?
* If not, which of the two Part I terms is it co-termed with?
* If so, is that colorterm basic? Or monomorphemic but derived? Or underived but polymorphemic? Or a two-word term? Or what?

Part III
Is there anything else about your conlang's colorterm lexicon you think you should tell us?
Examples:
* How do you describe the hue and/or lightness and/or saturation of matte colors not among those you discussed in parts I and II?
* How do you describe other "color" features, such as glossiness, texture, pattern, or transparency/translucency?
* If your conspeech-community can see any near-ultraviolet and/or any near-infrared, how does that change or expand upon what you said in parts I and II?
* Is there anything else I forgot to mention somehow?

===============================================

[EDITED OUT 2/23/09 3:30PM eldin]

A. Does your language have different colorterms for this white color and this yellow color?

- If so, are they both "basic" (monomorphemic and underived)?
- Or is one basic?
  - If so, which one is basic?
  - And, is the other one monomorphemic but derived, or underived but polymorphemic, or what?
- Or, is neither one basic? (This is unlikely.)
  - Is either, or are both, monomorphemic?
  - Is either, or are both, underived?
If not, is there one colorterm that covers both white and yellow
?
- What is it?
- Is it basic?
- Is it monomorphemic?
- Is it underived?
Or does your 'lang have no colorterm for one of those two colors? Which one?

B. Does your language have different colorterms for this white color and this magenta color?

- If so, are they both "basic" (monomorphemic and underived)?
- Or is one basic?
  - If so, which one is basic?
  - And, is the other one monomorphemic but derived, or underived but polymorphemic, or what?
- Or, is neither one basic? (This is unlikely.)
  - Is either, or are both, monomorphemic?
  - Is either, or are both, underived?
If not, is there one colorterm that covers both white and magenta
?
- What is it?
- Is it basic?
- Is it monomorphemic?
- Is it underived?
Or does your 'lang have no colorterm for one of those two colors? Which one?

C. Does your language have different colorterms for this white color and this cyan color?

- If so, are they both "basic" (monomorphemic and underived)?
- Or is one basic?
  - If so, which one is basic?
  - And, is the other one monomorphemic but derived, or underived but polymorphemic, or what?
- Or, is neither one basic? (This is unlikely.)
  - Is either, or are both, monomorphemic?
  - Is either, or are both, underived?
If not, is there one colorterm that covers both white and cyan
?
- What is it?
- Is it basic?
- Is it monomorphemic?
- Is it underived?
Or does your 'lang have no colorterm for one of those two colors? Which one?

D. Does your language have different colorterms for this black color and this blue color?

- If so, are they both "basic" (monomorphemic and underived)?
- Or is one basic?
  - If so, which one is basic?
  - And, is the other one monomorphemic but derived, or underived but polymorphemic, or what?
- Or, is neither one basic? (This is unlikely.)
  - Is either, or are both, monomorphemic?
  - Is either, or are both, underived?
If not, is there one colorterm that covers both black and blue
?
- What is it?
- Is it basic?
- Is it monomorphemic?
- Is it underived?
Or does your 'lang have no colorterm for one of those two colors? Which one?

E. Does your language have different colorterms for this black color and this green color?

- If so, are they both "basic" (monomorphemic and underived)?
- Or is one basic?
  - If so, which one is basic?
  - And, is the other one monomorphemic but derived, or underived but polymorphemic, or what?
- Or, is neither one basic? (This is unlikely.)
  - Is either, or are both, monomorphemic?
  - Is either, or are both, underived?
If not, is there one colorterm that covers both black and green
?
- What is it?
- Is it basic?
- Is it monomorphemic?
- Is it underived?
Or does your 'lang have no colorterm for one of those two colors? Which one?

F. Does your language have different colorterms for this black color and this red color?

- If so, are they both "basic" (monomorphemic and underived)?
- Or is one basic?
  - If so, which one is basic?
  - And, is the other one monomorphemic but derived, or underived but polymorphemic, or what?
- Or, is neither one basic? (This is unlikely.)
  - Is either, or are both, monomorphemic?
  - Is either, or are both, underived?
If not, is there one colorterm that covers both black and red
?
- What is it?
- Is it basic?
- Is it monomorphemic?
- Is it underived?
Or does your 'lang have no colorterm for one of those two colors? Which one?

[/EDITED OUT 2/23/09 3:30PM eldin]
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Tolkien_Freak · Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:18 pm Post subject:

I'd be surprised to find a language that didn't make all of those distinctions, with the possible exception of white/yellow.

Hemicomputer · Joined: 04 Feb 2008 Posts: 610 Location: Calgary, Alberta

eldin raigmore

kyonides · Joined: 28 Aug 2008 Posts: 301

black - Naoxa /NaotCa/ from Naosos (coal)
blue - Keuna from Keu (gas or amorph)
green - Xyorna (monomorphemic)
cyan - Keldena (sky)
red - Myena (monomorphemic)
magenta - Neshauna (weird-like) derived from Nesha (weird) and Eune (form)
yellow - Reula (monomorphemic)
white - Virsa (monomorphemic)

yellow/green - Elarna from Elane (pear).

All the monomorphemic terms are part of polymorphemic terms like apple, milk and so on as prefixes, i.e. Virnadivi - "milk woman", woman who feeds a baby with milk.

Edit / Shilzen:

transparent / diaphanous - Fauselna derived from Faus (through)

grey / gray - Glaina (its origins are obscure, it could be derived from Glane - chain, Glame - dove, Glave - luck or just from a term lost in the sands of time.)

Derived from Myena (red)

Myenesna - reddish
Myerissa - pink
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killerken · Joined: 30 Sep 2008 Posts: 134 Location: Florida

I've only come up with words for the most basic colors:
durin=black
duls=blue
tris=green
talc=red
vilol=purple
waaslo=yellow
soton=orange
unors=white

Maybe I should change vilol to something more original...
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dusepo · Joined: 12 Feb 2008 Posts: 129

white = apan
black = achan
transparent = dōra
blue = bada
red = alaka
yellow = apēt
orange = elana
grey = dumera
brown = arōn
green = darōmad
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eldin raigmore · Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:11 pm Post subject:

Thanks, kyonides, killerken, and dusepo.

eldin raigmore · Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:53 pm Post subject:

Double-post because a whole day has gone by.

About the hue-lightness-saturation thing.

What about these 37 colors?
(The first six are among Part I's "first eight" above.)
(The first fifteen are among Part II's "first twenty-seven" above.)
(One might consider the first twenty-one, or most of the first twenty-five, to be close to some among the sixty-four mentioned above.)

Black hue=doesn't matter, lightness=0%, saturation=doesn't matter
White hue=doesn't matter, lightness=100%, saturation=doesn't matter

Red hue=red, lightness=50%, saturation=100%
Yellow hue=yellow, lightness=50%, saturation=100%
Green hue=green, lightness=50%, saturation=100%
Blue hue=blue, lightness=50%, saturation=100%

Medium Gray hue=doesn't matter, lightness=50%, saturation=0%

Pink (Pastel Red) hue=red, lightness=75%, saturation=100%
Pastel Yellow hue=yellow, lightness=75%, saturation=100%
Pastel Green hue=green, lightness=75%, saturation=100%
Pastel Blue hue=blue, lightness=75%, saturation=100%

Dark Red hue=red, lightness=25%, saturation=100%
Brown? (Dark Yellow) hue=yellow, lightness=25%, saturation=100%
Dark Green hue=green, lightness=25%, saturation=100%
Dark Blue hue=blue, lightness=25%, saturation=100%

Light (75%) Gray hue=doesn't matter, lightness=75%, saturation=0%
Dark (25%) Gray hue=doesn't matter, lightness=25%, saturation=0%

Grayish Red hue=red, lightness=50%, saturation=50%
Brown? (Grayish Yellow) hue=yellow, lightness=50%, saturation=50%
Grayish Green hue=green, lightness=50%, saturation=50%
Grayish Blue hue=blue, lightness=50%, saturation=50%

Reddish Gray hue=red, lightness=50%, saturation=25%
Brownish Gray? hue=yellow, lightness=50%, saturation=25%
Greenish Gray hue=green, lightness=50%, saturation=25%
Bluish Gray hue=blue, lightness=50%, saturation=25%

Grayish Red hue=red, lightness=50%, saturation=75%
Brown? (Grayish Yellow) hue=yellow, lightness=50%, saturation=75%
Grayish Green hue=green, lightness=50%, saturation=75%
Grayish Blue hue=blue, lightness=50%, saturation=75%

Grayish Pink? hue=red, lightness=75%, saturation=50%
Light Brown??? hue=yellow, lightness=75%, saturation=50%
Light Grayish Green? hue=green, lightness=75%, saturation=50%
Light Grayish Blue? hue=blue, lightness=75%, saturation=50%

Dark Grayish Red hue=red, lightness=25%, saturation=50%
Dark Grayish Brown? hue=yellow, lightness=25%, saturation=50%
Dark Grayish Green hue=green, lightness=25%, saturation=50%
Dark Grayish Blue hue=blue, lightness=25%, saturation=50%

Could part III be "Which of these 37 colors does your conlang have separate relatively-simple colorterms for?"?
Should it just leave out those last 16 and concentrate on the first 21?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Edit 2/27/09]: Upon reconsidering I've decided that the color-distinctions I've asked about in my last two posts just aren't "basic" enough to be put in the questionnaire. It would be very interesting to read what each conlanger has to say about how his/her conlang handles such distinctions; but it's unlikely that it will handle them by "basic colorterms". So I'm going to leave Part III as just an open-ended question. [/Edit 2/27/09]
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Aeetlrcreejl · Joined: 08 Jun 2007 Posts: 839 Location: Over yonder

black - surds
blue - abs
green - eros
cyan - firuzs (although derived from the Farsi word for turquoise, is never used for the stone - the word for the stone is elatisa)
red - ruds
magenta - lals
yellow - juzis
dark green - uraks
sky blue (8080FF) - sems
greenish-blue (0080FF) - suafs (not too common)
gray - fels
brown - bers
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