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Tones

 
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:11 pm    Post subject: Tones Reply with quote

In natlangs with lexical tone, there are up to four kinds of tone;
  1. level tones
  2. glide tones (rises and falls)
  3. simple contour tones (peaks (rise-falls) and dips (fall-rises))
  4. complex contour tones (peak-dips and dip-peaks)
Also, a natlang can have up to five level tones;
  1. extra-low
  2. low
  3. middle
  4. high
  5. extra-high
There are natlangs that have either two or more rises or two or more falls.
Questions:
  1. Do any natlangs have both an LM rise (23) and an LH rise (24)? If so, which ones?
  2. Do any natlangs have both an LM rise (23) and an MH rise (34)? If so, which ones?
  3. Do any natlangs have both an LH rise (24) and an MH rise (34)? If so, which ones?
  4. Do any natlangs have all three of an LM rise (23), an LH rise (24), and an MH rise (34)? If so, which ones?
  5. Do any natlangs have more than three different rising tones? If so, which languages, and which rising tones?
  6. Do any natlangs have both an ML fall (32) and an HL fall (42)? If so, which ones?
  7. Do any natlangs have both an ML fall (32) and an HM fall (43)? If so, which ones?
  8. Do any natlangs have both an HL fall (42) and an HM fall (43)? If so, which ones?
  9. Do any natlangs have all three of an ML fall (32), an HL fall (42), and an HM fall (43)? If so, which ones?
  10. Do any natlangs have more than three different falling tones? If so, which languages, and which falling tones?
  11. Do any natlangs have two or more different peaking tones? If so, which languages, and which peaking tones?
  12. Do any natlangs have two or more different dipping tones? If so, which languages, and which dipping tones?


With only two levels (L=2 and H=4),
  • there can be only two level tones (of course): L(2) and H(4);
  • there can be only two gliding tones: rise (LH = 24) and fall (HL = 42);
  • there can be only two simple contour tones: peak (LHL = 242) and dip (HLH = 424);
  • and there can be only two complex contour tones: peak-dip (LHLH = 2424) and dip-peak (HLHL = 4242).
With three levels (L=2, M=3, and H=4),
  • there can be three level tones: L=2, M=3, H=4;
  • there can be up to three rises; LM=23, LH=24, MH=34;
  • there can be up to three falls; ML=32, HL=42, HM=43;
  • there can be up to five peaking tones; LML=232, LHL=242, LHM=243, MHL=342, MHM=343;
  • there can be up to five dipping tones; MLM=323, MLH=324, HLM=423, HLH=424, HMH=434;
  • there can be up to eight peak-dips; LMLM=2323, LMLH=2324, MHMH=3434, LHMH=2434, LHLH=2424, LHLM=2423, MHLH=3424, MHLM=3243;
  • and there can be up to eight dip-peaks; MLML=3232, HLML=4232, HMHM=4343, HMHL=4342, HLHL=4242, HLHM=4243, MLHL=3242, MLHM=3243.
Second batch of questions;
  1. For each pair of peaking tones listed above, which if any natlangs have both of those? (ten pairs, so technically this is ten questions.)
  2. For each set of three of the peaking tones listed above, which if any natlangs have all three of them? (ten sets of three, so ten questions.)
  3. Do any natlangs have four or all five of the peaking tones listed above? If so, which natlangs and which peaking tones?
  4. Do any natlangs have more than five different peaking tones? If so, which natlangs and which peaking tones?
  5. For each pair of dipping tones listed above, which if any natlangs have both of those? (ten pairs, so technically this is ten questions.)
  6. For each set of three of the dipping tones listed above, which if any natlangs have all three of them? (ten sets of three, so ten questions.)
  7. Do any natlangs have four or all five of the dipping tones listed above? If so, which natlangs and which dipping tones?
  8. Do any natlangs have more than five different dipping tones? If so, which natlangs and which dipping tones?
With four levels (say, 1, 2, 4, and 5),
  • there can be up to six rises; 12, 24, 45, 14, 25, and 15;
  • there can be up to six falls; 54, 42, 21, 52, 41, and 51;
  • there can be up to fourteen peaking tones; 121, 141, 142, 241, 242, 151, 152, 154, 251, 252, 254, 451, 452, 454;
  • there can be up to fourteen dipping tones; 545, 525, 524, 425, 424, 515, 514, 512, 415, 414, 412, 215, 214, 212.
No natlang has more than nine tones, though, so with four levels it couldn't exhaust all of the simple contour tones. The more levels there are the less complicated the tones are and the fewer the complicated ones are; the more complicated the tones get the fewer the levels there are. Languages do tend to prefer glide tones to either contour tones or level tones, though; languages with only level tones are different. There are languages with only glide tones; with only glide tones and level tones; and with only glide tones and simple contour tones. TTBOMK there aren't any languages with both level tones and contour tones but no glide tones; nor with glide tones and complex-contour tones but no simple-contour tones; nor with level tones and complex-contour tones but no glide tones nor no simple-contour tones. Also, TTBOMK there aren't any languages with complex-contour tones but no simple-contour tones, nor any with simple-contour tones but no glide tones.
Third batch of questions:
  1. Do any natlangs have five levels and also have complex-contour tones? If so, which languages, which levels, and which complex-contour tones?
  2. Do any natlangs have four levels and also have complex-contour tones? If so, which languages, which levels, and which complex-contour tones?
  3. Do any natlangs have three levels and also have complex-contour tones? If so, which languages, which levels, and which complex-contour tones?
  4. Do any natlangs have five levels and also have simple-contour tones? If so, which languages, which levels, and which simple-contour tones?
  5. Do any natlangs have four levels and also have simple-contour tones? If so, which languages, which levels, and which simple-contour tones?
  6. Do any natlangs have three levels and also have simple-contour tones? If so, which languages, which levels, and which simple-contour tones?
  7. Do any natlangs have five levels and also have glide tones? If so, which languages, which levels, and which glide tones?
  8. Do any natlangs have four levels and also have glide tones? If so, which languages, which levels, and which glide tones?
  9. What's the highest number of peak-dip complex-contour tones any natlang has? Which language(s) and which peak-dip tones?
  10. What's the highest number of dip-peak complex-contour tones any natlang has? Which language(s) and which dip-peak tones?
  11. What's the highest number of peaking simple-contour tones any natlang has? Which language(s) and which peaking tones?
  12. What's the highest number of dipping simple-contour tones any natlang has? Which language(s) and which dipping tones?
  13. What's the highest number of rising glide-tones any natlang has? Which language(s) and which rising tones?
  14. What's the highest number of falling glide-tones any natlang has? Which language(s) and which falling tones?
  15. Are there any natlangs with complex-contour tones but no simple-contour tones? Which languages? What tones do they have?
  16. Are there any natlangs with contour tones but no glide tones? Which languages? What tones do they have?
If this group can answer these questions I'll be really happy. Thanks.
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yssida



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know eldin, I've grown quite an affinity with your detailed questions. Smile

Whilst I do not have the time (for now) to read your question thouroughly, I would like to present one concern.

Why the many, varied and different rising tones? Most languages usually just have one of each in any configuration (I'd assume all those rises would be possible). You may get away with adding glottal stops to/within/whichever in each syllable to augment your tone productivity (so to speak). And you might have weird sound changes resulting from that, ie the appearance of implosives or ejectives. That glottal stop is just an example. Maybe there are other sounds out there. Although that may appear to be some crude form of morphology if those processes were indeed productive thus negating your goal.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yssida wrote:
Why the many, varied and different rising tones? Most languages usually just have one of each in any configuration (I'd assume all those rises would be possible). You may get away with adding glottal stops to/within/whichever in each syllable to augment your tone productivity (so to speak). And you might have weird sound changes resulting from that, ie the appearance of implosives or ejectives. That glottal stop is just an example. Maybe there are other sounds out there. Although that may appear to be some crude form of morphology if those processes were indeed productive thus negating your goal.


I was just about to ask some questions kind of like that.

yssida wrote:
Most languages usually just have one of each in any configuration (I'd assume all those rises would be possible).
There are languages with two different rises, for instance LM and LH, or MH and LH. There are languages with two different falls, for instance HM and HL, or ML and HL.

But.

If a tonal language has glide tones (rises and falls) in its tone system, why would it need more than five pitches in its tone system? There are ten possible rises and ten possible falls with five pitches; if no language has more than fourteen tones, there are more than enough here.

Similarly, if a tonal language has five or more pitches in its tone system, and has glide tones, why would it need contour tones or level tones?

If a tonal language has both glide tones and level tones, why would it need more than four pitches in its tone system? There are six rises, six falls, and four level tones available with four pitches, a total of sixteen possible tones.

And if a tonal language with four or more pitches has both glide tones and level tones, why would it need any contour tones?

And if a tonal language has simple-contour tones (peaks and dips), why would it need more than four pitches? There are fourteen peaks and fourteen dips possible with four pitches.

And if a tonal language with four or more pitches has simple-contour tones, why would it need level tones or glide tones or complex-contour tones?

And if a tonal language has both glide tones and simple-contour tones, why would it need more than three pitches? There are three rises, three falls, five peaks, and five dips -- a total of sixteen tones -- available with three pitches.

Also if a tonal language with three or more pitches has both glide tones and simple-contour tones, why would it need level tones or complex-contour tones?

And if a tonal language has complex-contour tones, why would it need more than three pitches? There are eight peak-dips and eight dip-peaks possible with three pitches.

And if a tonal language has three or more pitches and has complex-contour tones, why would it need simple-contour tones, or glide tones, or level tones?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But, since there are languages with three pitches and two or three rises and/or two or three falls, I don't think it's impossible that there are some with three rises and/or three falls. If people can learn to tell LM from LH, and people can learn to tell MH from LH, and people can learn to tell LM from MH, why can't they learn to tell all three apart? Similarly for the falls; if HM and HL co-occur, and ML and HL co-occur, and HM and ML co-occur, why couldn't HM, ML, and HL all co-occur? And if any language has three rises, why couldn't some language have three falls?

--------------------

I admit I don't think it likely that any language with all of level tones, glides, simple contour tones, and complex-contour tones, is likely to have more than three relevant pitches. Nor do I think it likely that any language with three or more relevant pitches is likely to have complex contour tones, nor both level tones and simple contour tones.

And, coming as I do from an all-nontonal-languages linguistic background, I don't see how a person could learn to distinguish, say,
MHM from MHL
MHM from LHM
MHL from LHL
LHM from LHL
LHL from LML
LML from MHM
Even less likely do I find it easy to learn how to distinguish, say,
14 from 15
25 from 15
41 from 51
52 from 51
etc.
A four- or five- or six-pitch system seems hard to me. I assume that's just my own linguistic prejudice; "the way we do it is easy, the way you do it is hard".

Anyway; the more pitches a tonal language has relevant, the less complicated its tones tend to be.

There's probably a two-pitch language somewhere with eight tones;
H, L, HL, LH, HLH, LHL, HLHL, and LHLH.
Only one rise, only one fall, only one peak, only one dip, only one peak-dip, and only one dip-peak.

--------------------

Did I address any part of your question?
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yssida wrote:
YWhy the many, varied and different rising tones? Most languages usually just have one of each in any configuration (I'd assume all those rises would be possible).
If I read this pdf correctly, Fuzhou (a Northern Min language) has
  • three falls; HL, HM, and ML;
  • two rises; LM and MH;
  • one dip; MLM; and
  • two peaks; LML and MHM.
And, if I read this doc correctly, Yucunany Mixtepec Mixtec is a language with three level tones (H, L, and M), three falling glides (HL, HM, and ML), three rising glides (LH, LM, and MH), two dips (HLH and MLH), and three peaks (LHM, LML, and MHM). All on single-syllable roots. (Though the nuclei have to be either long or polyphthongal for the more complicated tones.)
msn Encarta wrote:
It is possible to contrast up to four different level tones, as in the West African language Grebo, and probably five, as in the Mexican language Trique. The most widespread systems are two-tone languages, such as Haya (Tanzania) or Dagaare (Ghana), and three-tone languages such as Yoruba (Nigeria). Phonetically, a language may have far more differences as a result of processes like downstep, a common process that lowers high (H) tones to mid (M) after a low (L) tone, so that an H-L-H sequence is phonetically more like H-L-M. In addition to different levels, languages may also distinguish between level tones and contour tones: rising tones, falling tones, or even more complex rise-falls or fall-rises. Two contours of the same shape seem to be the maximum, although there are rare reports of three, for example Chatino (Mexico).


It looks like sixty to seventy percent of natlangs have lexical tone. Of those, most have just two tones; most of the rest have just three. Also, most involve just two pitches; most of the rest involve just three. Also, most involve only register tones and glide tones; most of the rest involve just register tones, glide tones, and simple contour tones (peaks and dips).
Those with more than one level tone usually have just two level tones; those with more than one rise usually have just two rises; those with more than one fall usually have just two falls; those with more than one peak usually have just two peaks; those with more than one dip usually have just two dips. And so on.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the commonly stated and/or disputed ideas in linguistics of tonal natlangs, is that some such natlangs "care about" the absolute pitch, and others only about the intervals.

An "intervalic" tonal language, then, wouldn't distinguish, for instance, an HM fall from an ML fall, but would distinguish both of them from an HL fall; and wouldn't distinguish an LM rise from an MH rise, but would distinguish both of them from an LH rise.

In essence there'd be only one level tone, "Level", in such a language.

If it had five relevant pitches (I choose five only because that's what the IPA chart has on it), there'd be up to four falls and up to four rises. The falls would be among
  1. 21 and 32 and 43 and 54 would all count as one kind of fall ("very short" might be a good word for that);
  2. 31 and 42 and 53 would all count as a second kind of fall ("medium short", maybe?)
  3. 41 and 52 would both count as the third kind of fall ("medium long"?),
  4. and 51 would count as the fourth kind ("very long"?)
Likewise the rises would be among
  1. 12, 23, 34, and/or 45 ("very short");
  2. 13, 24, and/or 35 ("medium short");
  3. 14 and/or 25 ("medium long");
  4. and 15("very long").


Dips might come in the following shapes;
  1. 212, 323, 434, 535;
  2. 313, 424, 535;
  3. 312, 423, 534;
  4. 213, 324, 435;
  5. 414, 525;
  6. 412, 523;
  7. 413, 524;
  8. 214, 325;
  9. 314, 425;
  10. 515;
  11. 512;
  12. 513;
  13. 514;
  14. 215;
  15. 315;
  16. 415.
There'd be a similar list of possible peaks.

Of course there's less variety, and hence less complexity, if there were only three relevant pitches (say High, Low, and Medium). The possible dipping shapes could be from among:
  1. HMH and/or MLM;
  2. HLH;
  3. HLM;
  4. MLH.
The possible peaking shapes could be from among:
  1. LML and/or MHM;
  2. LHL;
  3. LHM;
  4. MHL.

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