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TC: What a fool believes he sees ...

 
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: TC: What a fool believes he sees ... Reply with quote

What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
(Doobie Brothers)

(Part of the challenge here is the multiple nesting of clause within clause.)
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ui riake uvale ue vw o reike ihw, ruli zivle ue etavastw uatami.

(pant - that is a lot of nesting)
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StrangeMagic
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eleypherion:

What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
What fool he-sees believes, no-man-wise power to-reason away has.
I iqa'am balupi ubali, sulamsarnimra fuepet qinzar uion candi.


Last edited by StrangeMagic on Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Aeetlrcreejl



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.

Ğdexet kala gadna morret, ejn bud bilferitett morga.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, StrangeMagic.
Thanks, Aeetlrcreejl.
Thanks, Tolkien_Freak.

@Tolkien_Freak and @Aeetlrcreejl; Would you be so kind as to give the rest of the Interlinear Morphemic Gloss, like StrangeMagic did?

@All; Would you be so kind as to tell the name of the conlang (or natlang) in which you've given your translation (provided you have a name yet?)

@All; If you can write your translation in your conlang's own script, I believe we'd all like to see.

-------
Thanks. (Again, and a lot!)
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ui riake uvale ue vw o reike ihw, ruli zivle ue etavastw uatami. (Raitoliste)

REL SUBR-thing fool REL think 3-M-PN DEM-thing see, no-one CAP-wise-man REL reason away.
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Aeetlrcreejl



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



I'm not usually kind, but...

Ğdexet kala gadna morret, ejn bud bilferitett morga.

REL-see-3P.SING REL-ABS.SING fool-ERG.SING believe-3P.SING, nobody-ERG.PL wise able-CAUS-reasonable-3P.PL death-TRANS.SING.

This is Loroae.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks both!
T_F, your morphology & syntax is cool. What does "CAP-" mean?
A, your con-script is cool.

Seeing these makes me wonder how anyone manages to understand the English -- even English-L1 speakers!

Does either of you have a non-English L1, or a really good L2 natlang, in which you could say this sentence? How does it come across -- obscure, or easy to understand? Poetry, proverb, or stupid saying?
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langover94



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that Aeetrlcreejl speaks Bengali as well as English.

As for me, I don't know how to translate this one into my conlang... That'll take some thinking Very Happy
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Aeetlrcreejl



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

langover94 wrote:
I believe that Aeetrlcreejl speaks Bengali as well as English.


I do indeed.
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
T_F, your morphology & syntax is cool. What does "CAP-" mean?

Capability. I didn't know exactly what the mood for 'can' is, so that's what I guessed.

I'd try it with Japanese, but I don't know enough.
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Aeetlrcreejl



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used can for that, because I couldn't find the abbrev. for it.
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StrangeMagic
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um, I guess in Mandarin, it would be something like this:

一個呆子看見的東西和相信的﹐聰明的人不可能改變他的思想。
Something a fool sees and believes, no wise person has the ability to change his ideas.

Yige daizi kanjian di dongzi huo xiangzin di, congmin di ren bukeneng gaibian ta di sixiang.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
T_F, your morphology & syntax is cool. What does "CAP-" mean?
Capability. I didn't know exactly what the mood for 'can' is, so that's what I guessed.

Maybe, it's "potential".*
I don't think there is "a standard abbreviation widely known among linguists" for this mood/mode/modality. But I'd use "POT" for "POTential" if I were you.

*
Wikipedia wrote:
The potential mood is a mood of probability, indicating that in the opinion of the speaker, the action or occurrence is considered likely. .... (In Japanese it is often called something like tentative, since potential is used to refer to a voice indicating capability to perform the action.)
...
In English, it is formed by means of the auxiliaries may, can, ought and must.


See also
Biber's three categories of modal verbs. Actually, search that whole document for "can" and "could"; there are several interesting terms.

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
I used can for that, because I couldn't find the abbrev. for it.
That's probably OK, because
the Leipzig Glossing Rules wrote:
Rule 3: Grammatical category labels
Grammatical morphemes are generally rendered by abbreviated grammatical category labels, printed in upper case letters (usually small capitals). A list of standard abbreviations (which are widely known among linguists) is given at the end of this document.
Deviations from these standard abbreviations may of course be necessary in particular cases, e.g. if a category is highly frequent in a language, so that a shorter abbreviation is more convenient, e.g. CPL (instead of COMPL) for "completive", PF (instead of PRF) for "perfect", etc. If a category is very rare, it may be simplest not to abbreviate its label at all.
In many cases, either a category label or a word from the metalanguage is acceptable. Thus, both of the two glosses of (4) may be chosen, depending on the purpose of the gloss.


Appendix: List of Standard Abbreviations has abbreviations for INDicative, IRRealis, PROHibitive, SuBJunctiVe (SBJV), and a few other things that may, or may not, be modalities or modes or moods; but the potential isn't one of them.

Also see the Eurotype Guidelines. Section 3.2 is an appendix of abbreviations. They list, there, one "modality", namely "ASseRTive" (ASRT); no "modes"; and several "moods", namely "adHORTative", "CoNaTiVe" (CNTV), "CONDitional", "EXCLamative", "FoRMal" (FRM), "HYPothetical", "INFeRential" (INFR), "JUSSive", and "PRECative".

However, their Section 2.2 lists others. The Eurotype Guidelines hope you'll only use those in Section 3.2, but "POT" is listed as the abbreviation for "POTential mood" in Section 2.2.

This guy wonders whether or not "conative" might be an aspect (e.g., instead of a mood).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Conative" is not the same as "potential". It comes from a Latin word meaning "an attempt"; strictly, it means to undertake or to attempt or to strive, and less strictly, it could mean any inclination or drive to do something.

the Wikipedia article on Navajo wrote:
Conative - attempted action
under "Aspects". But they also list "perfective" as a "mode"! So I think this particular article is not perfectly trustworthy for some purposes related to our purpose here.

However, conation has other meanings; including one in linguistics, and one in psychology.

"Conative" also occurs in Roman Jakobson's list of six functions of speech:
Functions
1 referential (= contextual information)
2 poetic (= autotelic)
3 emotive (= self-expression)
4 conative (= vocative or imperative addressing of receiver)
5 phatic (= checking channel working)
6 metalingual (= checking code working)
(Middleton 1990, p.241)

As you can see that has nothing to do with "attempted action"; nor with "capability" nor "potential".

I'm not going to list the psychology defintion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.linguistlist.org/issues/13/13-2166.htmlis just something interesting I found while looking at this.
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Last edited by eldin raigmore on Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:36 pm; edited 2 times in total
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StrangeMagic wrote:
Um, I guess in Mandarin, it would be something like this:

一個呆子看見的東西和相信的﹐聰明的人不可能改變他的思想。
Something a fool sees and believes, no wise person has the ability to change his ideas.

Yige daizi kanjian di dongzi huo xiangzin di, congmin di ren bukeneng gaibian ta di sixiang.

Could you say, in Mandarin, anything which would be closer in meaning to
"Something a fool believes that he sees, ..."?

-----------------------------------------------------------

And BTW I didn't get logged out while researching and assembling my previous post; so I'm not having that "Logged out" problem I was having earlier. Here's to hoping it's gone permanently!
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
Tolkien_Freak wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
T_F, your morphology & syntax is cool. What does "CAP-" mean?
Capability. I didn't know exactly what the mood for 'can' is, so that's what I guessed.

Maybe, it's "potential".*
I don't think there is "a standard abbreviation widely known among linguists" for this mood/mode/modality. But I'd use "POT" for "POTential" if I were you.

*
Wikipedia wrote:
The potential mood is a mood of probability, indicating that in the opinion of the speaker, the action or occurrence is considered likely. .... (In Japanese it is often called something like tentative, since potential is used to refer to a voice indicating capability to perform the action.)
...
In English, it is formed by means of the auxiliaries may, can, ought and must.


See also
Biber's three categories of modal verbs. Actually, search that whole document for "can" and "could"; there are several interesting terms.


Yeah, I just realized it was 'potential' last night. Razz

That thing where conative is listed as an aspect looks pretty interesting. It Some of it seems a bit strange though (doesn't mention erg-abs, for example).
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StrangeMagic
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
StrangeMagic wrote:
Um, I guess in Mandarin, it would be something like this:

一個呆子看見的東西和相信的﹐聰明的人不可能改變他的思想。
Something a fool sees and believes, no wise person has the ability to change his ideas.

Yige daizi kanjian di dongzi huo xiangzin di, congmin di ren bukeneng gaibian ta di sixiang.

Could you say, in Mandarin, anything which would be closer in meaning to
"Something a fool believes that he sees, ..."?

-----------------------------------------------------------

And BTW I didn't get logged out while researching and assembling my previous post; so I'm not having that "Logged out" problem I was having earlier. Here's to hoping it's gone permanently!


Yeah, it would be something like this:

一個呆子相信他看到的東西時﹐聰明的人不可能改變他的思想。
Something a fool believes he sees, no wise person has the ability to change his ideas.
Yige daizi xiangzin ta kandao di dongzi shi, congmin di ren bukeneng gaibian ta di sixiang.

---

And yay, for the silly logging out problem.
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