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Kosovo independence

 
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Aeetlrcreejl



Joined: 08 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:42 pm    Post subject: Kosovo independence Reply with quote

It happened earlier today. How do y'all feel about it?
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dusepo



Joined: 12 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woah, cool! i expected it to happen, but not for a few years yet. i wish them all the best.
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Tolkien_Freak



Joined: 26 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's cool that the world has a new country.

If they're all Albanians there, why didn't they just join Albania?
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Aeetlrcreejl



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe they will.
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yssida



Joined: 16 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not so sure they would want that...
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not like secession.
I didn't like the breakup of the Soviet Union. I liked that it was no longer constitutionally Communist, but I wish the "Commonwealth of Independent States" had stayed together.
I'd rather Kosovar had gotten more "states' rights" and stayed part of Serbia; for that matter I'd rather Yugoslavia hadn't been broken up.
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Vortex



Joined: 10 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
I do not like secession.
I didn't like the breakup of the Soviet Union. I liked that it was no longer constitutionally Communist, but I wish the "Commonwealth of Independent States" had stayed together.
I'd rather Kosovar had gotten more "states' rights" and stayed part of Serbia; for that matter I'd rather Yugoslavia hadn't been broken up.


Unfortunately the serbian government has proven itself to be violent, oppressive and genecidel so I think it is better for kosovo to be independent rather then be forced to stay apart of a country whose government want the kill their people.
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halyihev



Joined: 23 Apr 2007
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Location: Vermont, New England / Vrïtálá Kritsensá, Álurhná

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ordinarily I'm inclined to favor peoples getting the right to be free. But this case worries me.

I think the whole situation is a bit more complex than just "Serbs are evil and want to commit genocide on the poor, defenseless Kosovars". Not that Serbs aren't nationalistic and into ethnic purity for their whole country, and willing to violate international laws and norms, and be brutal and sadistic in their pursuit of their nationalistic and ethnic goals, as they've already demonstrated several times over. But let's not forget that the Albanians in Kosovo are relatively recent arrivals (since the 1500's or so) who displaced an existing Serb population.

And that the muslim Albanians in the past certainly overall sided with the Ottoman Turks over the Orthodox Christian Serbs. That's an ancient conflict, agreed, but the Ottoman occupation of the Balkans has left a very deep scar and a lot of overall bitterness in the non-muslim peoples of that area. I had a Bulgarian girl in a class I took who talked to me about that in depth. The Ottoman Turks committed a lot of evil in the area overall during their centuries of occupation, and the remaining muslim people groups are paying the price.

And, that the recent Kosovo incident began when the ethnically Albanian Kosovo independence group(s) began trying to agitate and drive Serbs from Kosovo using assorted murder and intimidation. Agreed that the Serbian response (swift, brutal, and aimed at crushing and destroying the Albanians of Kosovo) was unacceptable. But Kosovar Albanians hadn't all been just sitting there growing apples and writing folk songs or something and then suddenly got viciously attacked with no provocation at all.

And, let's remember that the activist (and particularly the violent) muslim Kosovars, like muslim Bosnians, have gotten a lot of underwriting and support from other muslim groups that are into violence as a justifiable means to any end. This just reinforces the Serb feeling that this is just the same conflict as they fought against the invading Ottoman Turks back in the 1400's or so. One grand Muslim Caliphate that's out to get them, and themselves as the valiant defenders of Christian Europe, just like it's "always been".

And, let's remember that Kosovo is, in Serbian history, a vitally important piece of land. This is where they inflicted a signature defeat of the muslim forces back in the past. Imagine having something really critical in US history and the American psyche, like New England or Texas, and having lots of people from a totally different culture and/or ethnic group move in there, start shooting at and generally intimidating the remaining American communities, and finally unilaterally declare independence from the United States. And imagine that the people who back that are the Russians and the Chinese. And that will give you an idea of how the Serbs are feeling about this whole thing.

Finally, I worry that, as the Serbs have said and clearly the Spanish and Cypriot governments feel, Kosovo will be a blueprint for other terrorist groups like, say, ETA, who figure that they need only start something, get the government to go overboard in their response, and then cry to the rest of the world, and poof! they get an independent state. It could cause a lot of pain in a lot of places.

I also think it's more than a little hypocritcal of the US and France especially to be all happy and supportive of cheeky little Kosovo standing up and throwing off the yoke of Serbian rule, while they themselves would never think of allowing, say, the Lakota of the US Great Plains, or even the Hawaiian people or the Inuit or Aleuts in Alaska, or the Bretons or the Basques in France, of doing exactly the same thing.
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Vortex



Joined: 10 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@halyihev
I don't think it is fair to compare some of the native separist groups in america to that of Kosovo. In america those groups make up a minority of those populations and even if the made up the majority it would the original populations are too small and/or under organized to sustain themselves. Plus those groups in america have it so much better than the Kosovar albanians ever did. Also if you were to use the argument that because they didn't live in that region until recently then they ve o right breaking away fo serbia then one could argue that turkey shouldn't exist and should be still apart of greece. Also the Kosovar albanians have never gotten much support from the radical muslims since only a few mujahedeen have shown up to fight for them when serbia tried to ethnically cleanse kosovo. But I do agree with you on one thing kosovos independence does worry me since does threaten other countries stability. I would hate to live through russia absolutely crumbling because its republics decide they want to be free.
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halyihev



Joined: 23 Apr 2007
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Location: Vermont, New England / Vrïtálá Kritsensá, Álurhná

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vortex wrote:
@halyihev
I don't think it is fair to compare some of the native separist groups in america to that of Kosovo. In america those groups make up a minority of those populations and even if the made up the majority it would the original populations are too small and/or under organized to sustain themselves. Plus those groups in america have it so much better than the Kosovar albanians ever did. Also if you were to use the argument that because they didn't live in that region until recently then they ve o right breaking away fo serbia then one could argue that turkey shouldn't exist and should be still apart of greece. Also the Kosovar albanians have never gotten much support from the radical muslims since only a few mujahedeen have shown up to fight for them when serbia tried to ethnically cleanse kosovo. But I do agree with you on one thing kosovos independence does worry me since does threaten other countries stability. I would hate to live through russia absolutely crumbling because its republics decide they want to be free.


Yes, you could argue that I suppose. But on the hypocracy front of this, many nations that are supporting Kosovo independence are against independence for the Basque country, Kurdistan, Kashmir, East Turkistan (Uighurstan?), and even Tibet. Why? Because independence for those peoples, who are as deserving as the Kosovar Albanians, would upset a an ally (Spain, Turkey, India, and China respectively).

And even if the Lakota (who actually did declare independence recently, and have been ignored) aren't viable, that doesn't explain the position of, say, France, who not only wouldn't hear of Brittany or Corsica declaring independence (even though Brittany actually *was* independent until the 1400's or so) and even tends to deny those peoples any ethnically specific rights (like language use) in schools and government circles, but says Kosovo should be independent. If Kosovo, then why not the Basques? Why not Corsica? Why not Kurdistan and all the rest?
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mrtoast2



Joined: 19 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that overall, it is good. I do not like the fact that all of our countries are breaking up and becoming smaller and smaller....but it is for the best.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole idea of "self-determination of peoples" was part of the resolution of World War I that Woodrow Wilson more-or-less championed and insisted on against the professional advice of the diplomats who worked for him, including his own Secretary of State.

There should be a better way to protect minorities than having them create their own nation-states.

For one thing, if a minority secedes as Kosovo has seceded from Serbia, the new nation-state often contains a new minority who have ties to the "old majority", as indeed has happened with a Serbian minority in Kosovo.

--------

Of course this also happens without secession. In the government of Detroit, for instance, there have been proposed ordinances that have nearly passed, that accord special privileges to "Blacks" as "the biggest minority", that are withheld from "Whites" because "they're the majority" (except, in Detroit, they aren't), and also withheld from other minorities than Blacks.

Bad, IMO, but at least no-one's killing anyone else, nor even wanting to.

---------

What we need is to be conquered by an alien species from outer space that will treat us all like dirt equally, so we can all hate them more than we hate each other.
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mrtoast2



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote=eldin ragmore]There should be a better way to protect minorities than having them create their own nation-states.[/quote]

I agree.
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Aeetlrcreejl



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russia's autonomous republics?
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