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Aalšiknām

 
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LingoDingo
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:56 am    Post subject: Aalšiknām Reply with quote

Hello Vreleksį forum peeps! I'm real new on here, as I'm sure you know, and I have a script I'd like to ask your critic for.

Sadly my camera is kind of a let down when it comes to this sort of pictures but I did my best to make it legible. This is an abugida written from left to right in rows from top to bottom. The basic consonants are divided into two categories: short and long. Short consonants take up one "length" while long ones take two. Short consonants are those that cannot be held and long are those that can. Many consonants can be written as voiced by placing a vertical bar on the right side of the consonant with the same height as the character. Digraphs and trigraphs can be used in any situation where the pair of sounds occur one after the other, even if they are part of a different syllable. The ones in this list may be expanded upon greatly and should thus not be considered a complete list. The three digraphs seen in the title words are, as of now, only used for those words: Aa(lm)oken / Aa(lš)i(kn)āk* (meaning The Language of the Mountain and Sun and the Writing of the Mountain and Sun). Vowels are divided into two groups: Base and Loose. The base vowels are typically ordered from deepest to highest tone: u, o, a, e, i. The three loose vowels are ordered similarly: ū, ā, ī. Each of the base vowels corresponds to one of the loose vowels: u - ū; o,a,e - ā; i - ī. Each vowel also has a doubled form, as shown in the image. Numbers are used in base 10 format. Periods, Exclamation marks and Question marks are placed at the beginning and end of the sentence and Exclamation and Question marks can be used simultaneously. The space marker is used as in English, as are the semicolon and colon. The Parenthesis are used for situations when information is "added" to the sentence in the form of subordinate clauses as well as quotes from written material such as a novel. The Quotation marks are used to quote spoken material such as a political speech. Name markers are placed around any proper noun such as a person's, country's or book's name. Finally, the statement markers are used similarly to the use of paragraphs in English except that they are used to enclose any complete thought, including somethings so small as a dependent clause that is standing on its own. Tell me what you guys think and if you think there's something I should change. I'll try to answer any questions as well. Thank you.

* the standard transliteration method I have in place involves many of the eastern European language usages of the caron, and the circumflex is used to represent loose vowels. There is also one occurrence of the cedilla where it is placed on the letter c and is used the same as the IPA uses this symbol (ē) as well as a superscript glottal stop symbol representing, well, the glottal stop.

** I made a mistake in the image.. the first (s) with the symbol that looks like a script w with the vertical bar on the left is actually the Retroflex Fricative.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What an excellent first post!

And there's much more to admire, and much less to warn against, than in most of our first 'scripts (mine, for instance, isn't even posted yet).

Because you did such a complete first post, I haven't read all of it yet, but what I have read looks good.

Have you tried to write much in it yet? For most script-makers and most constructed scripts, worthwhile evaluations come from actually trying it out.

How's your conlang (Aalšiknām ?) coming along?

---------------------------------------

Welcome here! We're glad to have you.
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LingoDingo
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much =]. Judging by the fact that this script was created earlier this week, most of my practice has been in transcribing names of my friends and teachers. I designed this script because I had a system of writing it previously that became far too structured and I ended up leaving as a possible alternative to the IPA. Aalšiknāk uses characters with no more than three strokes each and with fluid motions. The writing I've so far has been relatively quick and simple with the exception that I tend to accidentally make characters smaller when writing on paper with no lines, but that's mostly a handwriting issue for myself. Aalmoken, the language, is not very well developed lexically at this point and my grammar system is as worked out as I think it can be with such a small word-set. I started this language a little over a month ago. I could give a couple sentence introduction example in the language and script if you're interested.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aalšiknāk
or
Aalšiknām
?

If both are correct, under what circumstances is one correct and under what circumstances is the other correct?
Do they mean the same thing, exactly? Or is, for instance, one a noun and the other a verb, or one singular and the other plural, or something?
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LingoDingo
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aalšiknāk is the noun meaning "the Writing of the Mountain and Sun" and Aalšiknām is the infinitive of the verb. It is possible for Aalšiknām to be correct if you are referring to the act of writing in Aalšiknāk.
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.aď sodai peťās sokās na asnā;šustās buntai mokā aaťal. - One never truly knows a culture until they learn its language.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of the characters look too complicated. I'm not sure how to say which ones, because as best I can read it, it appears you've sometimes used the same Latin-letter label for two different characters in your conscript.

The first n, the second s, the l, and the heng, look too complex to me.

I'm not sure what most of your punctuation marks are intended for.

I'm not sure your "statement markers" would have any use; or, at least, that you'd really need both an opening one and a closing one. But I could be wrong about that; English sentences begin uppercase and end with a period (aka "full stop").

It's just that, if
you have both opening and closing question marks (the opening one warning the reader that the sentence to follow is interrogative),
and
opening and closing exclamation marks (the opening one warning the reader that the sentence to follow is exclamatory),
if you also had
opening and closing "command marks" (to set off imperative sentences),
then
wouldn't readers just assume that if a sentence began with nothing to indicate it was a question or command or exclamation, it would be an ordinary declarative sentence?

Why do you need a semicolon and a colon? Even if you need one, why do you need both? Why not just use closing statement-markers as "full stops", and then use what you're calling a semicolon as a comma?

What's your very first punctuation mark supposed to be? I can't read what's on the right-hand side of the "equal" sign.

What's that fourth one --- that little raised circle --- supposed to mean?

What about spacing? Are there meant to be spaces between words?

-----------

It's really very good!
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LingoDingo
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got scanned in for you, so it can be read more easily.

No two characters represent the same sound.

Some letters may look more complex, but I assure you all the letters are easy to write.

The Statement markers are applying to the Aalmoken definition of statement: a complete thought set. A statement can be several sentences long. It's roughly equivalent to a paragraph.

the first punctuation symbols are the periods and they are placed at the beginning and end for consistency reasons.

The period =/= full stop the same way you're thinking in my language. The period represents only the end of a single thought. The semicolon links two separate but closely interrelated sentences and the colon states that anything following is an example of or definition of the preceding statement.

The raised circle is the word separator, used the same as a space.

I hope you can read this image better. I can try to write a short statement to illustrate as much of the punctuation as I can if you like.

Also the equivalent sounds are shown with the IPA.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! That is easier to read.
It answers some of my questions, too.

I still have some questions. Some of them I'll wait, either until I have them framed better in my head, or until I figure out how to write them.

But here are some I can ask right away.

What are those 6th and 7th digraphs? (6th and 7th from the top; 5th and 6th from the bottom.) They're the ones between /kɹ/ and /ns/.
Is the sixth one /ʍ/, a voiceless labial or labio-velar approximant?
Is the seventh one /r/, an alveolar trill?

Is ʂ the voiceless retroflex sibilant?

How many liquids, how many laterals, how many rhotics, how many approximants, and how many semivowels, do you have?

You have both an alveolar approximant and an alveolar trill. Are these both rhotics?
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LingoDingo
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All your guesses are correct.

As far as my understand of phonetics goes; I can tell you that /l/ is the only lateral; /ɾ/, /r/, /ɹ/ and /ɣ/ are all rhotics; /w/, /ʍ/, /ɹ/ and /j/ are approximants; and /w/, /ɹ/ and /j/ are semivowels.

Also, when not followed by a vowel, /ɹ/ can also represent /˞/(r-colored vowel) and /ɚ/ when also unpreceded thereby.

Also for feeling of awesomeness reasons, I'd just like to mention that this is the 9000th post on this forum =D.
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Aert



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As far as my understand of phonetics goes; I can tell you that /ɾ/, /r/, /ɹ/ and /ɣ/ are all rhotics; /w/, /ʍ/, /ɹ/ and /j/ are approximants; and /w/, /ɹ/ and /j/ are semivowels.


Just to clarify:

/ɾ/, /r/, /ɹ/ are rhotics.
/ɣ/ is the voiced velar fricative /x/ is the voiceless version, like German Bach.

All the rhotics, laterals (except lateral fricatives), approximants you listed, and semivowels are 'approximants' in the general usage. In the more specific use, only /ɹ/, /l/, and /j/ are approximants.

Cheers!
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LingoDingo
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well considering most r's in German are pronounced as /ɣ/ (e.g. Reise) and most sources I found when I researched it listed the uvular and velar fricatives as rhotics, I'm still inclined to list it as one.

Also what keeps /w/ and /ʍ/ from being approximants in general usage?

Thanks for the info.

=]
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LingoDingo wrote:
All your guesses are correct.

As far as my understand of phonetics goes; I can tell you that /l/ is the only lateral; /ɾ/, /r/, /ɹ/ and /ɣ/ are all rhotics; /w/, /ʍ/, /ɹ/ and /j/ are approximants; and /w/, /ɹ/ and /j/ are semivowels.

Also, when not followed by a vowel, /ɹ/ can also represent /˞/(r-colored vowel) and /ɚ/ when also unpreceded thereby.

Also for feeling of awesomeness reasons, I'd just like to mention that this is the 9000th post on this forum =D.


Thanks.
The only thing I'm not sure about is why /ɹ/ counts as a semivowel.

_____________________________________________________________

Aert wrote:
Just to clarify:

/ɾ/, /r/, /ɹ/ are rhotics.
/ɣ/ is the voiced velar fricative /x/ is the voiceless version, like German Bach.

All the rhotics, laterals (except lateral fricatives), approximants you listed, and semivowels are 'approximants' in the general usage. In the more specific use, only /ɹ/, /l/, and /j/ are approximants.

Cheers!


LingoDingo wrote:
Well considering most r's in German are pronounced as /ɣ/ (e.g. Reise) and most sources I found when I researched it listed the uvular and velar fricatives as rhotics, I'm still inclined to list it as one.

Also what keeps /w/ and /ʍ/ from being approximants in general usage?

Thanks for the info.

=]


@Aert, it appears to me LingoDingo "is" right (I think it might be a relative thing, so "could be right" might be more accurate).
@LingoDingo, it appears to me Aert "is" right too (ditto above parenthetical remark).[/u]
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LingoDingo
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The only thing I'm not sure about is why /ɹ/ counts as a semivowel.


Well, assuming /ɚ/ is a vowel and the /ɹ/ is based thereof, and assuming that a semivowel "functions as the syllable boundary" then /ɹ/ is presumably a semivowel.

I'm new to this phonetic stuff so if I'm wrong then I'm sorry; I'm going off of what few minutes of research I do after each question.

Feel free to inform me of my faults so that I may know better henceforth.
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Aert



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some languages use the orthographic 'r' to represent the voiceless uvular fricative /χ/, including Brazilian Portuguese and French (the /ɣ/ is the voiced velar fricative).

But you're right - the uvular and velar fricatives can be described as rhotics, it's just not a very specific term. I lean away from the general terms 'liquid,' 'rhotic,' etc when I'm working with phonology/phonetics.

Regarding /w/ and /ʍ/: they're interpreted as being both/either fricatives and approximants, as there's no distinction with these specific consonants (same for /h/).

Regarding /ɹ/, some languages use consonants that can be syllabic (like /m/, /n/, /ɹ/, /l/, and probably a few others) as the nucleus in a syllable. Semivowels are 'defined' as being the consonant version of a vowel: /j/ for /i/; /w/ for /u/, and /ɹ/ can be the consonant version of a rhotacizised central vowel /ɚ/ or /ɝ/.

Good luck with your works!
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LingoDingo wrote:
Well, assuming /ɚ/ is a vowel and the /ɹ/ is based thereof, and assuming that a semivowel "functions as the syllable boundary" then /ɹ/ is presumably a semivowel.
That's a good reason.


LingoDingo wrote:
I'm new to this phonetic stuff so if I'm wrong then I'm sorry; I'm going off of what few minutes of research I do after each question.
It's just that in most analyses of most languages in which /ɹ/ occurs it's thought of as a rhotic; and rhotics are usually thought of as liquids rather than semivowels. But liquids and semivowels are all at the top end of the Sonority Hierarchy, for consonants; only vowels are more sonorous than them.
For your 'lang it might be more reasonable to consider /ɹ/ a semivowel.


LingoDingo wrote:
Feel free to inform me of my faults so that I may know better henceforth.

We usually do. Laughing But it's nice that you asked; we can predict that you'll not take it as insults nor as "picking on you". Cool


Aert wrote:
things
What s/he said.
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LingoDingo
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info.

I made an alteration to Aalšiknāk over the past two days and I feel really good about it. Here it is:

I've reduced the nasals /m/, /n/, /ŋ/, /w/, /ɹ/ and /ʍ/ to one "length".

I've also made it so that /w/, /ɹ/ and /ʍ/ become a diacritic beneath a consonant when they are pronounced directly thereafter.

I've also provided a short introductory sample from Aalmoken using Aalšiknāk. It reads:

Transliteration
*”bina!æhainīk kiine?.nikyaane joeenām go LiňgāudiňgāU..wiimžu nebi škafnem..za avāň aanaiš is wavžei toˀeic:šuvbun toˀul ka šuvnim toˀil ka to.*

Morphological Analysis
*”hello!æhow feel-PR/2P(S)?.may-PR/2P(S) call-INF I-ACC LingoDingo..live-DP/1P(S) sixteen year-PL/ACC..three person-PL be-PR/3P(PL) in family-POS I-GEN-POS:parent-M I-GEN and parent-F I-GEN and I.*

Approximation
Hello! How do you feel? You may call me LingoDingo. I have lived sixteen years. Three people are in my family: my father, my mother and I.

Equivalent
Hello! How are you? My name is LingoDingo. I'm sixteen years old. There are three people in my family: my father, my mother and I.

I wrote the text after everything else so there are so digraphs in it that I forgot to put on the list (sorry about that).
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.aď sodai peťās sokās na asnā;šustās buntai mokā aaťal. - One never truly knows a culture until they learn its language.


Last edited by LingoDingo on Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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LingoDingo
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, if any of you can think of a di- or trigraph you think would be easily determinable I'd be glad to hear it.

In fact, any ideas would be appreciated.

On another note,
I hope to soon be able to figure out a way of talking about Aalmoken in the conlang section sooner or later. Still thinkin' though.
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.aď sodai peťās sokās na asnā;šustās buntai mokā aaťal. - One never truly knows a culture until they learn its language.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LingoDingo wrote:
(his two latest posts)

Looks good!


LingoDingo wrote:
I hope to soon be able to figure out a way of talking about Aalmoken in the conlang section sooner or later. Still thinkin' though.

We look forward to it. Ask us any questions you would like to know the answers to.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just made today what I hope to be the last change to Aalšiknāk. After much writing I finally decided that /t/ and /s/ were just too complicated to write.

As such I switched the value of the /n/ and /t/ characters and removed the tail from the new /n/.

Also I made an earlier change that I forgot to mention where I removed /l/ from it's position in the last chart to a 90ŗ counterclockwise rotated version of the /j/ character.

/l/ now functions identically to the approximants and it's diacritic is an upward-slanting curve placed beneath the preceding consonant.

I have also created a block-script form of Aalšiknāk that I'm willing to put up if anyone's interested. If I ever manage to create a font for Aalšiknāk I would probably begin with the block-script.
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