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Farewell, happy fields, where joy for ever dwells!

 
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:11 am    Post subject: Farewell, happy fields, where joy for ever dwells! Reply with quote

Farewell, happy fields,
Where joy for ever dwells! Hail, horrors! hail,
Infernal world! and thou, profoundest Hell,
Receive thy new possessor--one who brings
A mind not to be changed by place or time.
The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
What matter where, if I be still the same,
And what I should be, all but less than he
Whom thunder hath made greater? Here at least
We shall be free; th' Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure; and, in my choice,
To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.

edit:
from John Milton's "Paradise Lost".
A speech by Lucifer or Satan -- one of them, I don't remember which name Milton used.
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Last edited by eldin raigmore on Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is it? Who's the author?
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polyglot



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's from paradise lost by John Milton.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

polyglot wrote:
it's from paradise lost by John Milton.
whs.
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achemel



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've done it in ddamychal, new and old. I plan to do it in my other conlangs, but I'm working on finals now and probably should have waited to do even this translation.


Ddamychal:
Tha lon, leypin khidia,
An ghesa ysral in ghel saach! Bestech, rakhtanan! bestech
Alis dashe-nat! shi chwn, dashe duna,
Irim o m heratahe shana pa tal gywreach
Ga-zan nat ma hesat idukhginte ze hakh sle nelde.
Al-zan halach chel m hakh moza, shi kha chelsyth
Temoch inar ga-lwteri gha dashe, ga-dashe gha lwteri.
Ne khadel ghesa hesa, dal halala al-khil atalan,
Shi tala hamala tal halath, hal ys tech ti la
Tal kharid hesach inante forkhleta? E al-memi
Hesazhot chria; lys-daghech na-hesach ynonte
E ar m ra, al na-hebuzhach im e:
E hesasut anunte ma flazig lunubn; shi, kha sa m syt,
A flazig herach fasal an sili, fenekhte kha dashe:
Formar ma flazig kha dashe ti ma liwt kha lwteri.


/goodbye-frml. Field-pl. happy
LOC where joy for-always live-PRES-3.sing. hail horror-pl. hail
Word hell-ish. And you-m. hell deep-SUP
Receive-IMP you-GEN have-person new one that bring-PRES-3.sing.
INDEF-mind NEG INF be-INF change-PP by place or time
DEF-mind be-PRES-3.sing. it-GEN place personal and in it-self
Can-PRES-3.sing. make INDEF-heaven out-of hell, INDEF-hell out-of heaven
NEG issue-COP where be-PRES, if be-PRES-1.sing.m. DEF-same(n.) yet
And what should-PRES-1.sing.m. that be-INF, all yet less than he-DOP
That thunder be-PRES-2.sing. make-PP COMP-great? Here DEF-little (at least)
Be-FUT-1.pl. free; DEF(hon.)-god NEG-be-PRES-3.sing. build-PP
Here for he-GEN envy, we-DOP NEG-send-FUT-3.sing. from here
Here be-PRES-1.pl. let-PP INF rule-INF secure-ADV; and in I-GEN choice
INF rule-INF have-PRES-1.sing. value (pertaining to) ambition although in hell
COMP-good INF rule-INF in hell than INF serve-INF in heaven/

Badb bregh, hu Zhon Myltwn. /Paradise Lost, by ~/


In the older form of the language, it would be like this:
Tha lon, lhopni chidi,
An ghesa metchidil in ghel seache. Tha drheth rhachonan! Tha drheth
Healois dssenat! Ss ge chyn, dsse snwn,
Im s m he-rdahe chanhy pa tal giwreche
Ga-znne nat a hesache idukhginante ze hach sl nhelde.
Al-znne walache chail ssyn hach msse, ss che chailsyth
Temoche nar ga-lythri gha dsse, ga-dsse gha lythri.
Na hal chadde ghesa hesa, dal halayrh il-khuile ysch,
Ss tahla a hamawalath, hala ech ysch tych la
Taldwn kharuid hesache oireachtanante faorkhlet? E al-mmaitge
Hesasswt chr; lys-thyrhech nat-hesache nnonte
An e ar ssyn ra, ald nat-hbusche t ghime e:
E swt nthwche a khiridd earon an feanh; ss, che me zyntho,
A flazhyg hesache fasalo an el, fenekhte kha dsse;
Mśne a flazhyg kha dsse ti loiyt kha lythri.

Batdh Braell, ze Zjean Myltwn.


There are a few lexical and grammatical differences, but the main thing is pronunciation. Due to the use of this language as a sort of common or trade language, the biggest change was in simplifying pronunciation and standardizing grammar until some older forms were completely lost.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Impressive! Cool

I think the IMT or "Interlinear Morphemic Gloss" shows some creativity in your conlang.

And you translated the title and author of the poem!

Thank you. Very Happy

When you get the chance (assuming you ever do), could we see it in your conscript? Or, however much of it you want to do in your conscript?
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achemel



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you. Very Happy

I actually have translated it into a total of four languages now, and am working on others. I really shouldn't - I've got stuff to do but I'd much rather procrastinate, haha. I'm going to post the new translations and links to scripts together, so those'll probably be up in the next week or two. If I'd just buckle down and write the stupid papers I'd have all the free time in the world!!! Crying or Very sad
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achemel



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I have not yet finished scripting the translations, but I thought I could put up the romanized versions anyway, for something to do. Rolling Eyes

First:
Ra cel:
ldyma mojam, cablen i cwvirir,
Hjenm nvn hybhio gnad! Nen jvyghn! Nen,
Lasv i trueghjora! S-thli, a hbchtiaga jomin,
Mum thli narirj-athi udva fs sa nala
sudh gyn n-rbc u-bh dv u-scyg.
Ia rbc bh-sibhi, s-by-jn
Gl iathiach dhẅ lẅasv jomin n-ẁmin, lẅasv ẁmin n-jomin.
Avt h ia l bhaf s-nil-ia l mhc ia l
da thl th malluc hjenm, byvn eny n rwc
sa iag iathiam fghdhẅ wdver? Iagh li ghrf
hra ib; iag forrm gyn Adim ib
ve-ẅndu-crd, gregh loch rwc lg sv-ib:
ib ceveodh tomgh li cnrẅ; s-by-nn-nagh,
thl co yfeb sa tomgh, cvr by-jomin:
tomusagh by-jomin n smvnamusagh by-ẁmin i werathi.


/strong-ADV step-out-IMP, field-pl. a1n1 happy
Where forever dwell-PRES hope INTJ horror-pl. INTJ
World a1n1 infernal and-you-NOM a1n2 SUP-profound hell
Receive-IMP you owner-yours a1n4 new one that bring-PRES
Change-PASS NEG a-mind by-place or by-time
Be-PRES mind place-its and-in-itself
Can-PRES make it out-of hell a-heaven out-of heaven a-hell
If still be-PRES I same and-should-be I way be-PRES I
Then have-PRES what meaning where ever less than he-NOM
That be-PAST make-PAST thunder COMP-great be-FUT we-NOM free
At-least here be-PAST build-PAST NEG God here
For-envy-his force-FUT leave-INF he us from-here
Here allow-PASS reign-INF we secure-ADV and-in-choice-mine
Have-PRES value ambition to-reign-INF though in-hell
Reign-CONT-(noun) in-hell than serve-CONT-(noun) in-heaven a1n1 COMP-good/


Tadvradcel:
Fsathuth, msh fs,
cs ellm thy esv hnwth! Mr, rhah! Mr,
Ibr sthomwn reah! Ysth , cdvlse sthomwn,
Alw nf stha rhisse thh is thrhalw
Ssrhgh ssth hysraes ghlyn l clyv els tyss.
Ssrhgh hysr ch d clyv ysth ms chns
Lyrf thfrhis wmwn ssl sthomwn, sthomwn ssl wmwn.
Ssor blyth cs no hysr es s t,
Ysth fi ssmhysr es, esv gi be ada
Is dvch hysr thfrhyn lnrh? Tha ms fethls
Hoiress esruc gld; eslib ssth hysr ghlthyn
Tha be crd ns, ssth hsthith ada esruc ssl tha:
Tha hysr fylyn manth ssclh esruc h; ysth, ms ss assa,
Be ssclh hysr d hirhls, no ms sthomwn:
Lamrth be ssclh ms sthomwn s dmhes ms wmwn.


/go-CONT, happy field,
Where joy all ever live-PRES INTJ terror INTJ
Like hell world and you awful-SUP hell
Receive-IMP-you your new possess-person one(nom.) who bring-PRES
Mind NEG be-INF change-PAST by place or time
Mind be-PRES it of place and in it-self
Can-PRES make-INF heaven from hell hell from heaven
How mean-PRES where if be-PRES I-nom. yet same
And who should-be-PRES I-nom. all (yet) less-than he
Who thunder be-PRES make-PAST COMP-great here at least
Be-FUT we free god NEG be-PRES build-PAST
Here for he-GEN envy NEG send-FUT he we from here
Here be-PRES let-PAST that rule-INF we safe and in I-GEN choice
INF reign-INF be-PRES of future though in hell
COMP-good INF reign-INF in hell than serve-INF in heaven/

There is a dialect of ra cel, called Wemegh cel, but the differences in this translation are minor, mainly in there being a definite article /du-/ attached to /rbc/, and /d/ initially (except for the article) becomes /dh/.
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achemel



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aaaand then Hemnlg:

Hemnlg (standard - Lab, Usjytt):
Ejlmdj, meran jrastor,
Grym gjodal gamanic prm! Dbve, oppetar! Dbve,
Tjpevt planyg! Yr b, mudrery Bl Drytan,
Enscken bm stab vlsjebic dir gyl jmg
Gottjac sj nykec itg paral p guljol.
Gottja sg vl gulj yr i isal
Ska nst badfec dakg p dakc badfeg.
Rhb dyrh grymic, p jej sor nerlech,
Yr rhb sorjaa form, sr num nypj nule rhiteg
Gyl carhid nsteel bdorsaa? Noch jngyc
Sorja kar sam; Baakj sj rysbaal
Noch bejl drangejc, sj punja karic hvsj:
Noch abuskic dy hokanep; yr by fors dsic,
Honepic sg njalla vnstec, ras dakc:
Lorsaa s honepic dakc nu gnsic badfec.


/farewell happy-pl-(m) field-pl.
Where joy eternal-ADV dwell-PRES (greeting) horrible-thing-pl. (greeting)
Infernal-(n) planet and you(m) profound-SUP-(n) Melancholy Plains
Receive-IMP you-GEN-(m) new-(n) possessor-GEN.OBJ-ACC one-nom. that bring-PRES
Mind-ACC-(n) NEG become-INF other time-by(n) or place-by(f)
Mind be-PRES-3.s.f own-(f) place and as (it)self-by-(f)
Can-PRES-3.s.f make heaven-ACC-(n) hell-INST-(n) or hell-ACC-(n) heaven-INST-(n)
What meaning where-LOC if still be-PRES-1.s same
And what be-PRES-1.s-FUT.IMP I-ACC-(m) all but yet less-than he-ABL-(m)
That thunder make-PAST-PAST great-COMP-(n) here minimal-ADV
Be-FUT-1.pl we-NOM free-(n) the-Goddess NEG build-PAST-PAST
Here she-GEN jealousy-for-(n) NEG drive-FUT we-ACC hence
Here safe-ADV (permissive) reign-we-PRES and in I-GEN-(m) opinion-by-(n)
Rule-INF be-PRES-3.s.m worthy-(n) determination-in-(n) although hell-LOC-(n)
Good-COMP-(n) so rule-INF hell-LOC-(n) than serve-INF heaven-in-(n)/


Hemnlg (Vrhelklad):
Ejlmdj, mera jyrastr
Grym gamanic purj gjdal! Dbve uppetar! Dbve,
Tjpevt planyng! Yr eb, mydrery Bl Drytan,
Enscken ebis stab vlsjic dir gyl jmg
Gudjac sj nykec isj paral p guljl.
Gudja sr vl gulj yĝ i isal
Ska nst badfec dasjveg p dasjvek badfeg.
Rrb dyĝ grym, p jej sr nerlesj,
Yĝ rrb srjaa farm, sr num nypj nule rrideg
Gyl carid nstelel bdrsaa? Nusjv jngyc
Srja kar sam; Baakj sj rysbalal
Nusjv bejna drangec, sj punja karic hvsj:
Nusjv abuskic dy hunep; yĝ fars dsal,
Hunepic sar njalla vnstec, ras dasjvec:
Lrsaa s hunepic dasjvec nu gnsic badfec.



Hemnlg (Nra):
Ejlt, mera jerastor,
Gryn gjodal ononat pn! Dbve, oppetar! Dbve,
Tpevt planyg! Yr ei, mudrery Bl Dryttan,
Ensckech eina stab vlsjec dir gyl jmg
Godjac sj nykach isj paraaf po guljyyf.
Godja sog vl gulj yr isaaf
Ska nst badfec dasjeg po dasjec badfeg.
Rrb dyr gryn, po jej sorj nerlech,
Yr rrb sorjara fon, sor nun nypj nule ritteg
Gyl carrid nstl bdorsaa? Noch jongyc
Sorjara kar san; Baakj sj rybaal
Noch bejna drangec, sj punjar karic hvsj:
Noch abuskic dyy honep; yr fos dseef,
Honepech seg njalla vnstec, rassa dasjet,
Lorsaa so honepech dasjet nu gnsech badfet.



Hemnlg (Burstnby):
Ejlatame, mera jeerastor,
Grym gjodal onaj prm! Dbve, oppetar! Dbve,
Tjpevt planych! Yĝ eeb, mudrery Boal Drytan,
Enscke eebis stab vlsjic dir gyl jmg
Godjac sj nykack ich paral po guljol.
Godja sg vloo gulj yĝ i isal
Ska nst badfec dakeg po dakec badfeg.
Rrb dyĝ grym, po jej sor nerlech,
Yĝ rrb sorjaa form, suuĝ num nypj nule rriteg
Gyl carrid nstelel bdoĝsaa? Noch juungyc
Sorjaa kar sam; Baakj sj rysbalal
Noch bejna drangec, sj punja karic hvsj:
Noch abuskic por honep; yĝ fors dsic,
Honepeck sg njalla vnstec, ras dakec:
Loĝsaa soa honepeck dakec nu gnsic badfec.



I believe all the phonological information is in my post about dialects under Conlangs, but I can put up pronunciation for all of these on demand, or in conjunction with images when I finishe them. Wink Also, here are two bonus languages!


Taisyth:
Hafsal berdm padi,
Dlasi wj foyeb sta! Hey poym! Hey,
Sotyn icyav! Ath jou, pelh dyajutem,
Yesba jouie domom ica ces oche so nyekem
A rit koo hunai sacketh ni dlase oy hire.
Phe rit ia Iie dlase os, ath ic imei
Sach rag a pabe o pelh, a pelh o pabe.
Sfa radey dlasi, ivh ich nai mhil phe mae,
Ath sfa ich mapulta nai, al nu lemda e
So phut mpa ragath kyeya? Pari ahleamh
Se mal nai fer; phe alrikja mpa koo nutath
Pari foy pi raj yik muse; ath, ic ri soshie,
Huyik ia sodz arndo, puukh ic pelh:
Nede huyik ic pelh phan meib ic pabe.


Started out as a code for English and has steadily been working its way toward functional language over the course of 8 years.


Kari:
Hetai kameranta ia shittaritu kanta rodan,
Hansune! Noyanin, setchigyan! Noyanin,
Hakei taelia! Soo tara cae, cherokeke yatai dshe,
Cae ne futu enneshuli o akure tashe zo kilume fae
Chikarahennawenai nos o gagoyau ichuka.
Nos ua lairo kilume de, tookahe tsuru deme
Dshe uyu fushiteya o gede e ya fushiteya uyu dshe ya.
Soke ie ma na, teho a no aneani muri,
O ha hei ne wasumura noro, tor na ke ho
Caelonai ia iio ke ho ni gedosha kain? Shan nan atiare
Dayoo murihiri, hobataneka ia shan ni
Hano ne nakatto ni gatakoemisha san de, shan shre heitashi o honoyehiro san:
Shan ni horateshi ni geatoi e; sha shita hei ne gaefuu ni
Geatou noro ua mamomo ni dasu ya, sao dshe ni:
Dshe ni geatou noro hyo fushiteya ni kajoshekai mu noro ua fuaike ya.


Developed back in ninth grade, when I started learning Japanese. Smile Can you see the Japaneseness? Ahahaha.

Sorry they don't have glosses... I can do those another time... And, I'm still working on Nmah and Ualaxx but Nmah at least should be done pretty soon. Wooo! Hooray for holidays and free time!



/edit/
Achderlieber! I forgot the name!

Hemnlg:
Paradise Lost, by John Milton:
Luckal Badve, Djn Mldenel
Luckal Badve l Djn Mylten
Badve Luckal, Tan Melttenel
Badve Luckal, Tjan Multeenel

The variance is just in their regional preference in the order of titling stories and crediting authors.

ra cel and t-cel:
Tẅlamn i ghdhir jw-Jnmyltn [te:ɹlamən i xjuəir ʥɯʥa:nnɪltn]
Ehnsyn Wmwn l Tssn Mylthn [ehnsɪn ɯmɯn lʏ tʃɔn mɪlθn]
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beautiful! And, encouraging!

What's "a1n1" mean again?
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achemel



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, that's "first adjective of the first noun." I've got all those weird particles for denoting which adjectives go where. Wink Working on scripts!
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

achemel wrote:
Ah, that's "first adjective of the first noun." I've got all those weird particles for denoting which adjectives go where. :wink: Working on scripts!

Particles?
Independent words, not clitics or affixes or other inflection?
(A "particle" is a word that doesn't take inflection. Clitics might be considered words, just not independent words.)
So,
a1n1 means "first adjective of first noun",
a1n2 means "first adjective of second noun",
a2n1 means "second adjective of first noun",
and so on.
Unless these particles are somehow attached to the adjectives, say as clitics or as affixes, I don't see how they help you organize which adjective goes with which noun in case the adjective and the noun get separated from each other.
If: either; each adjective always has to be immediately preceded by its axny particle; or; each adjective always has to be immediately followed by its axny particle: then: I don't see why speakers wouldn't start to think of them as clitics or even as affixes, just as easily as continuing to think of them as independent words.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In your romanization of "Ra cel", a1n1 is "i", a1n2 is "a", and a1n4 is "", if I am not mistaken.
Did you skip a1n3 on purpose, or was that a minor error?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

When do you start renumbering your nouns? At a paragraph boundary? At a sentence boundary? At a clause boundary?
When do you start renumbering your adjectives? At a noun-phrase boundary?
Can you show some examples where the axny particles help tell which adjective goes with which noun?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I call them particles simply because I don't know what I actually SHOULD call them. But, they always directly precede the adjective, and admittedly they probably aren't necessary in spoken ra cel because one would think linearly and wouldn't be coming up with adjectives before the nouns they go with (like you wouldn't think "there's a big yellow cat and a tiny dog" and say "tiny cat yellow big dog," although with ra cel you could and it would still make sense), but the markers are helpful in literature where adjectives might be all over the place, or conversely all clumped together. ra cel doesn't allow more than five adjectives on one noun at a time, and the fifth would be an exception anyway because it wouldn't get a marker and would just be floating around. And in writing, they are considered independent words, but words that always must be paired with an adjective, or rather the adjective must be paired with them.
Numbering in writing depends on just how descriptive the writer wants to get. They can renumber after any break in a sentence, from a comma to a hyphen to quotes and so on, and renumbering always occurs after a stop. The break in writing must be shown with some sort of punctuation. So, if they needed a bunch of adjectives on eight nouns, they could divide the sentence or phrase with commas, which aren't always used as they are in English - in a cel they can be simple pauses, or they can separate clauses and phrases or lines in poetry. In speech you generally don't have enormous run-on sentences, and usually adjectives will come right after nouns anyway because you'd want to get descriptions out before you forgot them, so that's a little different, but one could start again after a significant pause in the flow of speech (other than an obvious sentence ending) which would be accepted as spoken punctuation. Adjectives are restricted to five per noun regardless of how the nouns get renumbered - they appear within the boundaries of whatever punctuation contains their associated nouns. You could have, say, a phrase within quotes or hyphens around which the nouns and adjectives would be considered part of the same group, and those within the punctuation would be a different group, but you wouldn't have an adjective outside the punctuation describing something within them, although I suppose you could use the ambiguous fifth adjective with no marking and leave its connection up to the listener's imagination.


And, // would be correct. The nouns are, in order, /thli/ /jomin/ /thli/ again and /narirj/.


I hope these examples might make things clearer. I'll use cats and dogs as my base nouns. The arrangement of adjectives in writing can be for emphasis or focus on a particular trait or description. I know that I read English and Japanese in entirely different ways because their word orders differ, and I think it's the same for ra cel. You could think of their sentences as an open hand, and as you get each piece of the sentence it closes into a fist. Maybe it goes one finger at a time, or maybe it all snaps together at the beginning or end, or even the middle.

So.


Here are a cat and a dog. Ia ib n-dertha-s-n-sfr.
/be-PRES here a-cat-and-a-dog/

Here are a white cat and a brown dog. Ia ib n-dertha-s-n-sfr i cunut a ordat.
/be-PRES here a-cat-and-a-dog 1a1n white 1a2n brown/

Here are a small white cat and a big brown dog. Ia ib n-dertha-s-n-sfr i cunut in vir a ordat an henmaf.
/be-PRES here a-cat-and-a-dog 1a1n white 2a1n small 1a2n brown 2a2n big/

The order of these could be switched around depending on what the writer felt was most important or interesting. Let's say they thought it was important to let the reader know from the start that the cat is white, and that the dog is big - i cunut a henmaf ia n-dertha-s-n-sfr ib in vir an ordat
/1a1n white 1a2n big be-PRES a-cat-and-a-dog here 2a1n small 2a2n brown/
Or they could just reorder the adjectives at the end of the sentence: Ia ib n-dertha-s-n-sfr a ordat in cunut an henmaf i vir. Here, the emphasis is on the fact that the dog is brown, and then the cat is white but more importantly it's small, though before that the reader should know also that the dog is big. It's like playing connect the dots.

Here is a small, shy, young white cat and a big, brown, energetic, happy dog. Ia ib n-dertha-s-n-sfr i vir in nimhir il tonf iẅ cunut a henmaf an ordat al mdur aẅ cwvirir.
/be-PRES here a-cat-and-a-dog 1a1n small 2a1n shy 3a1n young 4a1n white 1a2n big 2a2n brown 3a2n energetic 4a2n happy/
You could split this and group the cat descriptors with their noun and the dog ones with their noun, separated by a pause so both were in 1a1n form: Ia ib n-dertha i vir in nimhir il tonf iẅ cunut, (s-)n-sfr i henmaf in ordat il mdur iẅ cwvirir.
The adjectives don't have to be in that order, but I'll leave them that way for simplicity's sake.

A sentence with one noun and a bunch of adjectives, which in English would likely appear in list form, may also be broken in this manner. In the case of a single noun, it's possible to list the first four adjectives with the appropriate markers, and then separate the remainder with a comma and no marker at all:
It is a small, shy, young, cute, soft, sleepy, male cat. Ia n-dertha i vir in nimhir il tonf iẅ jlagir, bunur fnrder onva.
/be-PRES a-cat 1a1n small 2a1n shy 3a1n young 4a1n cute (5a)1n soft (6a)1n sleepy (7a)1n male/
The unmarked adjectives may be linked with "and" /-s-/: bunur-s-fnrder-s-onva.

Let's say you had a longer sentence, like "I walked to the neighboring town with my best friend and her older brother with cake to give to another friend." /neighboring/ /my/ /best/ /her/ /older/ and /another/ are the descriptors, though /my/ and /her/ could be switched with the pronoun suffixes rather than the adjectival forms that require markers. Assuming one did not use the suffixes, we'd end up with the ambiguous fifth adjective, in this case 1a5n /(an)other/. The sentence could be any of the following depending on what the speaker felt was most important:
Ghelim l t-vyt a mirditur n-rathyb u hfr un na s-irger dhojir n nan gr-tẅis sa faranmr t-n-rathyb nana.
/walk-PAST I-nom. to-town 1a2n neighboring with-friend 1a3n SUP-true 2a3n my and-brother 1a4n elder 2a4n her with-cake to give-INF to-a-friend (no marker) other/ <--- this would be the most linear version.
Ghelim l t-vyt a mirditur n-rathyb-s-irger u hfr un na dhojir n nan gr-tẅis sa faranmr t-n-rathyb nana.
/walk-PAST I-nom. to-town 1a2n neighboring with-friend-and-brother 1a3n SUP-true 2a3n my 1a4n elder 2a4n her wit-cake to give-INF to-a-friend other/
Changing the word order will also change the adjective markers.
Ghelim l t-vyt a mirditur gr-tẅis sa faranmr t-n-rathyb nana, n-rathyb i hfr in na s-irger a dhojir an nan.
/walk-PAST I-nom. to-town 1a2n neighboring with-cake to five-INF to-a-friend 1a4n other with-friend 1a1n SUP-true 2a1n my and-brother 1a2n elder 2a2n her/



...I actually can't think of anything else to do. Please let me know if these help, or just still don't make any sense.
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is next on my list, but I'm starting to think that I'm going to encounter some serious problems with translating it to Bulhaswai. I mean, how do you greet a non-sentient, abstract thing (like horror) in a language of higly logical and practically emotionless aliens? Very Happy
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

achemel wrote:
Well,
...[good explanation with good examples CUT]...
Please let me know if these help, or just still don't make any sense.

That's much clearer, thanks.

So, in speech, they might be clitics like English's "the", though in writing they still appear as independent words, again like English's "the".

Do you have a complete list of them?

What happens if a clause has, say, seven nouns in it, each of which is modified by (at least) one adjective?

There must be a limit to how many modified nouns a clause can contain without a significant pause or punctuation intervening; or, else, there must be an xayn-type particle that applies to, say, "all nouns after the eighth" or "every odd-numbered noun after the eighth" or some such arrangement.

What happens if one adjective modifies more than one of the nouns?

Do you have to say it twice, or do you say it with two (or more) xayn particles before it?

What happens if more than one but not all of the adjectives modify more than one but not all than one of the nouns?

For example, suppose you wanted to say
"The little old white ferret, the little young brown kitten, and the big old brown dog, were playing together".
Could you say
"were playing together the-ferret-and-the-cat-and-the-dog 1a1n 1a2n little 2a1n 2a3n old 3a2n 3a3n brown 3a1n white 2a2n young 1a3n big"
or the equivalent of some such thing?
Or if not, how would you say it?

______________________________________________________

Kiri wrote:
This is next on my list, but I'm starting to think that I'm going to encounter some serious problems with translating it to Bulhaswai. I mean, how do you greet a non-sentient, abstract thing (like horror) in a language of higly logical and practically emotionless aliens? :D

I can see your problem.

Actually, though, I don't think it's all that logical not to have an emotion like horror. Horror is extremely useful as a survival tool; and people who have perfect logic but no emotions seem much less reasonable than people who have disordered logic but normal emotions.

However, even if they have horror, it may never have occurred to any of them to greet it; nor to greet any other emotion; and maybe not to greet any abstraction. (To me at the moment, it's not provably clear nor clearly provable that any human thought of greeting horror before Milton had Lucifer do it in his poem. But greeting other abstractions had occurred often before, and greeting other emotions, like Beethoven's "Ode to Joy", happened not long after.)

Do your aliens ever say things like "Welcome, Spring!"? Or "Hard times, come again no more!"? Or "Greet the Dawn!"?

I will be interested to see how you accomplish it.
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Last edited by eldin raigmore on Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
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achemel



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
achemel wrote:
Well,
...[good explanation with good examples CUT]...
Please let me know if these help, or just still don't make any sense.

That's much clearer, thanks.


I'm glad. Wink


eldin raigmore wrote:
So, in speech, they might be clitics like English's "the", though in writing they still appear as independent words, again like English's "the".

Do you have a complete list of them?


Yes, I suppose they are very much like English's "the," although actually in one of the more obscure dialects, Wllwvw, they have shifted to directly affect the shape of the adjectives. I might post about that sometime.

Here is the list of adjective markers.

1st A 1st N - /i/
2nd A 1st N - /in/
3rd A 1st N - /il/
4th A 1st N - /iẅ/

1st A 2nd N - /a/
2nd A 2nd N - /an/
3rd A 2nd N - /al/
4th A 2nd N - /aẅ/

1st A 3rd N - /u/
2nd A 3rd N - /un/
3rd A 3rd N - /ul/
4th A 3rd N - /uẅ/

1st A 4th N - //
2nd A 4th N - /n/
3rd A 4th N - /l/
4th A 4th N - /ẅ/

You can have up to five nouns with five adjectives each before some form of separation must appear, with the fifth noun and all fifth adjectives being ambiguous. In a long sentence with multiple nouns, where the first adjective might appear after the fifth noun, you can indicate that numeration begins at that noun with a light interjection of no semantic value, like [a] or [a:] or [n=]. It wouldn't be correct to do it that way in writing, where you can think of what you want to say and plan it out, but it's acceptable in speech.


eldin raigmore wrote:
What happens if one adjective modifies more than one of the nouns?

Do you have to say it twice, or do you say it with two (or more) xayn particles before it?

...What happens if more than one but not all of the adjective modify more than one but not all than one of the nouns?


You could say it twice, but it is more common to have the adjective once and precede it with multiple markers, as in your example.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

achemel wrote:
...
I'm glad. Wink
...
Yes, I suppose they are very much like English's "the," although actually in one of the more obscure dialects, Wllwvw, they have shifted to directly affect the shape of the adjectives. I might post about that sometime.

Here is the list of adjective markers.

1st A 1st N - /i/
2nd A 1st N - /in/
3rd A 1st N - /il/
4th A 1st N - /iẅ/

1st A 2nd N - /a/
2nd A 2nd N - /an/
3rd A 2nd N - /al/
4th A 2nd N - /aẅ/

1st A 3rd N - /u/
2nd A 3rd N - /un/
3rd A 3rd N - /ul/
4th A 3rd N - /uẅ/

1st A 4th N - //
2nd A 4th N - /n/
3rd A 4th N - /l/
4th A 4th N - /ẅ/

You can have up to five nouns with five adjectives each before some form of separation must appear, with the fifth noun and all fifth adjectives being ambiguous. In a long sentence with multiple nouns, where the first adjective might appear after the fifth noun, you can indicate that numeration begins at that noun with a light interjection of no semantic value, like [a] or [a:] or [n=]. It wouldn't be correct to do it that way in writing, where you can think of what you want to say and plan it out, but it's acceptable in speech.

...

You could say it twice, but it is more common to have the adjective once and precede it with multiple markers, as in your example.
Thanks! Very Happy Cool
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ARGH, again me and my problems

What matter where, if I be still the same,
And what I should be, all but less than he
Whom thunder hath made greater?

I KINDA get these lines, but not really. Anyone can help with how I should understand them?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

About one, I'm pretty sure:
Kiri wrote:
What matter where, if I be still the same,
What does it matter that I'm in Hell if I'm still the same old Lucifer I always was?

About the next, I'm a bit guessing, and a bit paraphrasing.
Kiri wrote:
And what I should be, all but less than he
Whom thunder hath made greater?
What does it matter what my new job title is, or even that I'm unemployed and homeless now, as long as I'm still less only than God? (That is, Lucifer is still greater than any other being but God.)
The "Whom thunder hath made greater" bit may be a dig at the worth of God's means of being greater than Lucifer; in other words he may be suggesting that God wasn't really "the best man" in "let the best man win", but just the fellow who was able to beat up the other fellow rather than win a debate.

I'm sure there's a site out there that would explain these lines.

The lines just prior to that may help some:

Quote:
Him followed his next mate;
Both glorying to have scaped the Stygian flood
As gods, and by their own recovered strength,
Not by the sufferance of supernal Power.
"Is this the region, this the soil, the clime,"
Said then the lost Archangel, "this the seat
That we must change for Heaven? this mournful gloom
For that celestial light? Be it so, since he
Who now is sovereign can dispose and bid
What shall be right: farthest from him is best
Whom reason hath equalled, force hath made supreme
Above his equals.

Read more: http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_guide/literature/Paradise-Lost-Summary-Analysis-and-Original-Text-by-Book-Book-I.id-140,pageNum-21.html#ixzz19dzAIfPm


And BTW I just found out it's Satan, not Lucifer.

They say:
Quote:
Following the invocation and prologue, Milton continues in the epic style by beginning in medias res, in the middle of things. Satan is first seen lying in the pit of Hell. That a great religious epic focuses on Satan, presents him first, and in many ways makes him the hero of the poem is certainly surprising and something of a risk on Milton's part. Milton does not want his audience to empathize with Satan, yet Satan is an attractive character, struggling against great odds. Of course, Milton's original audience more than his modern one would have been cognizant of the ironies involved in Satan's struggles and his comments concerning power. The power that Satan asserts and thinks he has is illusory. His power to act derives only from God, and his struggle against God has already been lost. To the modern audience, Satan may seem heroic as he struggles to make a Heaven of Hell, but the original audience knew, and Milton's lines confirm, that Satan's war with God had been lost absolutely before the poem begins. God grants Satan and the other devils the power to act for God's purposes, not theirs.

Also, at this point in the narrative, Satan is at his most attractive. He has just fallen from Heaven where he was the closest angel to God. He has not completely lost the angelic aura that was his in Heaven. As the poem progresses, the reader will see that Satan's character and appearance grow worse. Milton has carefully structured his work to show the consequences of Satan's actions.



Read more: http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_guide/literature/Paradise-Lost-Summary-Analysis-and-Original-Text-Book-I.id-140,pageNum-16.html#ixzz19e0EEM3u


Remember that Milton wrote this in 1667.
http://www.online-literature.com/milton/ wrote:
England was in a great state of flux during his lifetime; Milton sided with the Puritans and Oliver Cromwell (1599-1658), rejected popular political and religious beliefs, adopted an anti-royalist stance against King Charles I, and joined the pamphlet wars, writing many polemics on the Church of England including "Of Reformation Touching Church Discipline in England" (1641) and "The Ready and Easy Way to Establish a Free Commonwealth" (1660). As George Saintsbury (1845-1933) states in The Cambridge History of English and American Literature (Vol. VII, 1907-21) "the inspirers of his pamphlets were furies rather than muses". Milton also wrote pamphlets on various political issues like free speech and the censorship exerted by Parliament as in "Areopagitica: A speech of Mr John Milton for the liberty of unlicensed printing to the Parliament of England" (1644).
....
In 1649, after the regicide of King Charles I, Milton was appointed Cromwell's Latin secretary of foreign affairs and wrote many pamphlets in defense of the Commonwealth. The intense work of translating and writing created much strain on his eyes and he resorted to a secretary. By 1652 he was entirely blind and relied on the assistance of Andrew Marvell (1621-1678), but it seems that Milton was not unduly grieved by his loss of sight. After the death of Cromwell and the Restoration of King Charles II in 1660 Milton retired from public life; as staunch defender of the Commonwealth, he first had to hide entirely from King Charles's loyalists and some of his books were burned. The Great Fire of London in 1666 destroyed the Bread Street house where he was born and that he had inherited from his father. During the plague years he left London for surrounding areas; his cottage in the village of Chalfont St Giles, Buckinghamshire and its gardens are now a museum housing many of his works. It was here that Milton prepared for publication Paradise Lost and Paradise Regained, which also includes his poetic drama wherein he reflects on his own life once again under the monarchy, Samson Agonistes (1671);

Should Israel from Philistian yoke deliver!;
Ask for this great Deliverer now, and find him
Eyeless in Gaza at the mill with slaves,
Himself in bonds under Philistian yoke.

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