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TC: James while John had had...
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Hemicomputer



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:06 pm    Post subject: TC: James while John had had... Reply with quote

"James while John had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the teacher."

Or, with punctuation: "James, while John had had 'had', had had 'had had'; 'had had' had had a better effect on the teacher."

Could any similar sentences be possible in your 'langs, ones with extreme repetition of words? Do your native orthographies have ways around the confusion (ie: punctuation)?
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UOH

that's 11 hads in a row. and it makes sense.

頭=爆
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achemel



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In ddamychal it is possible to translate this directly and get a similar amount of confusion, especially without punctuation:

Iámz re Ian herakhun herakh herakhun herakhun herakhun herakhun ga-khebó masna an al-synse.
(gloss: /James while John have-PAST-PAST-3s. have-PAST have-PAST-PAST-3s. have-PAST-PAST have-PAST-PAST have-PAST-PAST-3s. i.d.a.-effect good-COMP on d.a.-teacher/)

Should it be made more formal, it would come out like this:

Iámz re Ian heratorathach ‘herakh’ herarathukhach ‘heratorukh’; ‘heratorukh’ heratorathach ga-khebó masna an al-synse.
(gloss: /James while John have-PAST-PAST-3s. have-PAST have-PAST-PAST-3s. have-PAST-PAST have-PAST-PAST have-PAST-PAST-3s. i.d.a.-effect good-COMP on d.a.-teacher/)

However, a more natural approach would be the following (with punctuation) -

Iámz re Ian sekhun ‘herakh’ sekhun ‘hesakh herante’; ‘hesakh herante’ herakhun ga-khebó masna an al-synse. -
(gloss: /James while John use-PAST-PAST have-PAST use-PAST-PAST be-PAST have-PP be-PAST have-PP have-PAST-PAST i.d.a.-effect good-COMP on d.a.-teacher/)

meaning "James, while John had used 'had,' had used 'had had'; 'had had' had had a better effect on the teacher."

And, that 'teacher' turns out to be /synse/ [sInsE] is a complete coincidence, sounding a lot like /sensei/ 先生.
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achemel



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Kari it turns out like this:

Jeemu ua Jaan fei kushai kka kurami ashi hai kumisha kka kurami de, kumisha kka wen ia ganeki ni kechiiso fuu memisa.

(gloss: /James TOP John subTOP have-PAST quote have-3s.m.-PAST point-during have-PAST-PAST quote have-3s.m.-PAST (pause), have-PAST-PAST quote way TOP teacher OBL effect good-COMP be-3s.n.-PAST-PP/)


Hemnalg like this:

Jejms is Jån rhelel rhel rhelel rhelel rhelel rhelel lorsaa mick skygec.

(gloss: James while John have-PAST-3s.m.-PAST have-PAST3.s.n. have-PAST-3s.m.-PAST have-PAST-3s.n.-PAST have-PAST-3s.n.-PAST have-PAST-3s.n.-PAST good-COMP effect teacher-OBL)
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achemel



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tadváradcel:
Sséms ÿdvà Ssàn hysryn manth rwlwn rwlwn hysryn manth rwlwn hysryn manth rwlwn; hysryn manth rwlwn hysryn manth rwlwn lam closá bïe vúthnï.

(James while John be-PAST that have-PAST have-PAST be-PAST that have-PAST be-PAST that have-PAST; be-PAST that have-PAST be-PAST that have-PAST better effect on teacher)

ra cel:
Iagë thlâmë Jéims ‘iagë thlâmë’ södhc iagë thlâmë Ján thlâmë, iagë thlâmë ‘iagë thlâmë’ tä-náco ë weraëthï.

(had had James ‘had had’ while had had John ‘had,’ had had ‘had had’ on-the-teacher an-effect n4a1 COMP-good)…please excuse the odd gloss. It’s just like Tadváradcel except lacking “that” between /be/ and /have/ for “had had”.

Ualaxx:
ceemzeessocunssocunneeäöcianeessocunəəocunneeerrii ssocuneessocunsueenoisssuuuiimaalnəcegnoo.

(/james-NOMs.-PRET-have-PRET-have-ACCs.-while-John-NOMs.-PRET-have-PAST-have-ACCs.-CONJs. PRET-have-NOMs.-PRET-have-effect-NOMs.-more-good-teacher-DAT/)

Nomah:
Aíria Tian aírarg nú, aíria Tiébes aíria; aíria aíria rtronne luailahea la aí shmudun.

(have-PAST-3s. John have-IMPAST3s. while, have-PAST James have-PAST; have-PAST have-PAST i.d.a.-effect COMP-good on the OBL-teacher)


Sorry this was in three parts. I kept thinking, "oh I'll do the others later" and then ended up doing them anyway. Wink
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kyonides



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, no conpeople would even try to say that in Kexÿana because they'd know other people would get bored easily and leave them talking alone.
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
UOH

that's 11 hads in a row. and it makes sense.


... does it? Question
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, something to the effect of:

'John had gotten (as an answer, or maybe 'written') "had", but James had gotten "had had"; the teacher preferred "had had".'

As for in Emitare, that wouldn't be possible due to agglutination. I wouldn't really expect anything like that to happen, just because it doesn't have any semantically bleached dummy verbs like 'had', and especially not ones that can retain their normal meaning also.
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kyonides



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kexÿana would use auxiliary verbs if deemed necessary so it wouldn't be possible to chain or agglutinate them.
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Aeetlrcreejl



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bɨɨše couldn't do this. It has no word of "have" in any sense of the word.
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it uses 'to be' + a dative or some kind of reference case to indicate possession? (or a genitive or something?)
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Aeetlrcreejl



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
So it uses 'to be' + a dative or some kind of reference case to indicate possession? (or a genitive or something?)


It uses the genitives (inalienable and alienable).
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3po



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't get it
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3po wrote:
i don't get it

In English, it's sometimes grammatical to say or write a sentence that has "had had" or "that that" in it. If that's all there is to it, those sentences aren't even contrived.

If you work at it you can make a grammatical English sentence that has even longer strings of repetitions of "had". To get much longer (say, more than three "had"s in a row), of course, you probably need to resort to quotation, such as the
"James ... had had 'had had'"
and
"'Had had' had had a better effect ..."
of the Original Post.

Those examples are contrived. But they're not too complicated; you don't have quotes-within-quotes, nor subordinate-clauses-within-subordinate-clauses.

If your target language (e.g. your conlang) doesn't have anything resembling English's "had had" then translating it into your 'lang will lose the joke in the translation.

English's retrospective ("perfect") tenses* take the form "(to have) + ('past' participle)"*. They communicate that some event was or is or will be completed by the time of the speech-act or of some other, more topical, event also spoken of, but that its effects was or is or will be still relevant at that time (the speech-act or some more-topical event also spoken of).

If the "more topical event also spoken of" was a past event, the past retrospective ("past perfect") is formed by
(a past-tense form of "have") + (past participle).
If the "more topical event also spoken of" is a present event, the present retrospective ("present perfect") is formed by
(a present-tense form of "have") + (past participle).
If the "more topical event also spoken of" will be a future event, the future retrospective ("future perfect") is formed by
(a future-tense form of "have") + (past participle).

It just so happens that, in English, the past-tense form of "to have" is "had", and the English passive-or-perfective-or-past participle of "to have" is homophonous with it, also "had".

So the past-retrospective of "to have" is "had had".

Your language might not have similar things. Or, it might, but they might have nothing to do with "past" or with "retrospective".

For instance, maybe your future tense is shown by ("to want" + infinitive); then if it happens that the form of your language's "want" used in constructing the future-tense, looks and sounds the same as the infinitive of "want", then to say the future tense version of "want" will involve what looks and sounds like the repetition of that word.

(In English the equivalent would be "will will". (Like, "I wonder who Grandma will will that knick-knack to?").)


Maybe your retrospective is "(to get) + (passive/perfective/past participle)"; so the past-perfect of "to get" would look like "got got".
In some languages either the retrospective (of course not all languages have a retrospective) or the future is formed by using "to become" or "to turn" or "to grow" or "to wax". "Come" and "go" are also used. They might have "turned turned" or "turn turn", or "grow grow", or some such thing.

*(Actually I think "perfect" may be a mood instead of a tense; other people think it might be an aspect instead of a tense. Also, the participle used might better be described as a "perfective (aspect) participle" than as a "past (tense) participle". But those are fine points that we don't need to resolve in order to talk about English's "perfect tenses".)
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achemel



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If anyone would like to try a translation similar to "James while John had...", my dad (of all people) posted this on facebook (of all places):

"I thought a thought that I thought I had thought, but the thought that I had thought wasn’t the thought that I had thought I had thought so maybe if I had thought the thought that I thought I thought I wouldn’t have thought so much."

And here is my translation in Ddamychal:

Ethekhs ga-etheta tal ethekhs tal ethekhuns, ech al-etheta tal ethekhs tal ethekhuns na-halakh al-etheta tal ethekhuns tal ethekhuns ga temen dal ethekhuns al-etheta tal ethekhuns tal ethekhuns na-hesaés ethente nen morlach.

and its sort-of gloss.

/think-PAST-1s.f. i.d.a.-thought that(prep) think-PAST-1s.f. that(prep) think-PAST-PAST-1s.f., but d.a.-thought that(prep) think-PAST-1s.f. that(prep) think-PAST-PAST-1s.f. NEG-be-PAST-3s. d.a.-thought that(prep) think-PAST-PAST-1s.f. that(prep) think-PAST-PAST-1.s. thus maybe if think-PAST-PAST-1s.f. d.a.-thought that(prep) think-PAST-PAST-1s.f. that(prep) think-PAST-PAST-1s.f. NEG-be-FUT-PAST think-PASTPART so much/
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's awesome.

JPN:
考えたと思った考えを考えたけど、考えた考えは、考えたと思った考えではなかった。だから、もしかして考えたと思った考えを考えたら、それほど考えなかっただろう。
Kangaeta to omotta kangae o kangaeta kedo, kangaeta kangae wa, kangaeta to omotta kangae de wa nakatta. dakara, moshikashite kangaeta to omotta kangae o kangaetara, sorehodo kangaenakatta darou.

It's not as bad since Japanese has 'to think (that something is the case)' and 'to think (about something)' as separate verbs (omou and kangaeru respectively). It's still a mess, but not as bad as English.
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Latvian you can use "domāt" for both kinds of thinking, but also you can differenciate between "domāt" un "šķist", and it takes even more subclauses that way. Very Happy

Latviešu
Es domāju domu, par ko domāju, ka to biju domājis, bet doma, ko biju domājis, nebija tā doma, ko domāju, ka biju domājis, tāpēc varbūt, ja es būtu domājis to domu, ko es domāju, ka domāju, es nebūtu tik daudz domājis.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where should I post
Code:

"Moses supposes his toeses are roses,
   but Moses supposes erroneously;
 For Moses's nose knowses his toeses aren't roses,
  As Moses supposes his toeses to be."
?
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh. Nice.
Don't think that'd translate well - that's another one where you'd have to come up with a non-translation equivalent that has a similar level of homophony.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
In Latvian you can use "domāt" for both kinds of thinking,
In English you can use "domāt" to wipe your feet before you walk into the house.
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