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Althist?
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Tolkien_Freak



Joined: 26 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:40 am    Post subject: Althist? Reply with quote

Anyone here do anything with alternate history? As often as collaborative projects fail, I was thinking it might be interesting to do a collab althist here (if there's enough interest).

POD is up for choice.
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Hemicomputer



Joined: 04 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not hugely sure what an althist is (alternate version of earth with certain changes to history?) and I have no idea what you mean by POD, but it seems like a cool idea. I'm in.
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Althists are pretty much that. POD is the 'point of divergence', the first event that happens differently from OTL (our timeline) - generally PODs define the nature of the althist. (For example, a TL with a victorious CSA would likely have the POD of Special Order 191 not getting lost.)

What's always most fun is having minuscule PODs make huge impacts on history.
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Kiri



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry for not answering sooner. This idea intrigues me. You can count me in.
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Aeetlrcreejl



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, as long as the POD is marked by something awesome.
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sweet, that's 4 people (including me)!

So, what do you guys suggest for a POD (or more than one, if we want it)?
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Aeetlrcreejl



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Potentials:

Tocharian does not die out.
Anatolian languages live on.
Greece is conquered by Persia.
Tonga and Hawaii form empires.
The Incan Empire is not conquered.
The Ottoman Empire stretches from West Africa to East Asia, and covers a significant portion of Europe.
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
Tocharian does not die out.
Anatolian languages live on.

Both of those are cool, but a bit minor. IDK how much impact they would really have on the world.

Quote:
Greece is conquered by Persia.

Now there's an interesting one, and not hard to pull off. (Removing Themistocles from the picture (disease in youth or something) guarantees a Persian victory.)

Quote:
Tonga and Hawaii form empires.
The Incan Empire is not conquered.

Those sound interesting, though I don't quite know how to get there.
Side note on that: something from Ill Bethisad that I would like to have as a sort of auxiliary POD no matter what we choose.

Quote:
The Ottoman Empire stretches from West Africa to East Asia, and covers a significant portion of Europe.

Again, sounds interesting, but how would we do it?
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Aeetlrcreejl



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well then, let's kill of Themistocles and conquer away! As soon as the others reply whether they're okay, that is.
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't mind the Greece-Persia POD. But what impact would that have? Would we have a way more arabic Europe, considering the Greek culture stuff? And what about the Rome?
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Note: I think I'm going to change my romanization of Greek names here.)

I bet a lot more ancient Persian influences would be visible in modern Western culture. Arabic, IDK, IDK what would happen to Persia in the 600s AD. (I don't know how much of Persia Rome would end up conquering, that remains to be seen!)

Rome - depends. I know in OTL Themistokles was going to evacuate the Athenians to southern Italy if they lost Salamis, perhaps a replacement would activate a similar plan and transmit at least some Greek culture to Rome.

I suggest we work on the idea taking each century at a time, perhaps less if necessary, starting in, say, 516 BC (having Themistokles die from some disease at age 8 ). Stuff won't change too much before 480, but Athens won't have nearly as powerful a navy and Artemision would probably end differently. (We can assume his nonpresence at Marathon wouldn't affect anything.)

@Aeetl: We might even be able to save the Anatolian languages, somehow I see Persia being more linguistically tolerant than Seleukia and Thrake.
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Hemicomputer



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like where this is going. Very Happy Any chance of us also using the "Incas not getting conquered" POD?
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hemicomputer wrote:
I like where this is going. Very Happy Any chance of us also using the "Incas not getting conquered" POD?


That's the easiest one, IMHO. The spanish just get lost and conquer China (or Iceland) instead Very Happy

But yes, we'll have to work one century at a time and keep our history books close to us Smile
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
Hemicomputer wrote:
I like where this is going. Very Happy Any chance of us also using the "Incas not getting conquered" POD?


That's the easiest one, IMHO. The spanish just get lost and conquer China (or Iceland) instead Very Happy


We could also mix in a 'Corts fails to escape La Noche Triste' and a 'Pizarro-equivalent comes later' so that the Incas already have firearms from the Aztecs by the time any Spanish get there.
The Aztecs also would not be conquered in that TL, and we would end up with two (possibly three, throwing in the Maya) fully fledged empires in the Americas that any European empire would have to use the same sized army to conquer them as to conquer their neighbors.
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In that case, if I'm not mistaken, we would have the whole American history rewritten. I guess what we have then is North and South America filled with 3 big countries until the WWI (at least). And it wouldn't be inhabited with English-speaking people. Would that mean French (or some other language) still being the lingua franka? How about Latvian for the sake of humour? Very Happy
Then what would the English, Spanish and Portuguese people do if they didn't have America to conquer?
Oh, I'm starting to have fun! Wink
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bet much of North America north of Mexico would still fall to European colonies, as well as the Caribbean and all of South America east of the Andes (and possibly Central America south of Guatemala). I have no idea which Europeans would end up getting where though.

One of the things I really want to see is an imperial Japan on a scale to rival imperial Britain, with colonies around Australia and NZ, Western North America and East Africa (and maybe pull an India with Italy!).

However, for now let's focus on ERA 1: 516 BC - (say) 450 BC.

Suggestions:
516 BC - Themistokles contracts some disease at age 8 and dies.
490 BC - The Athenians and Plataians defeat the Persians at Marathon.
483 BC - The money generated by the discovery of a new vein of silver at Laurion is distributed to private citizens at the suggestion of the archon Aristides. Athens continues a stalemate with Aigina (which had already sided with the Persians).
480 BC - Suggestions?: What strategy would the Greeks have adopted if Themistokles hadn't been there to suggest fighting at Thermopylai? Would someone else have suggested it, or would they have gone with something entirely different?
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Hemicomputer



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
One of the things I really want to see is an imperial Japan on a scale to rival imperial Britain, with colonies around Australia and NZ, Western North America and East Africa (and maybe pull an India with Italy!).
I second that!

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
480 BC - Suggestions?: What strategy would the Greeks have adopted if Themistokles hadn't been there to suggest fighting at Thermopylai? Would someone else have suggested it, or would they have gone with something entirely different?
Actually, I happen to know someone who is studying ancient Greek battles and war tactics. If you want, I could seek her opinion on that.
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hemicomputer wrote:
Tolkien_Freak wrote:
One of the things I really want to see is an imperial Japan on a scale to rival imperial Britain, with colonies around Australia and NZ, Western North America and East Africa (and maybe pull an India with Italy!).
I second that!

^_^
I think it's totally plausible (maybe not the Italy thing), as long as Ieyasu and his heirs aren't idiots like they were in reality (or they lose power somehow), or no Honnou-ji happens so Nobunaga survives and the Oda family retains control of Japan.
I know a guy by the name of Hasekura Tsunenaga took a ship from Japan to Rome via Mexico from 1613-1620, so there's no reason they couldn't get to North America or anything.

Quote:
Tolkien_Freak wrote:
480 BC - Suggestions?: What strategy would the Greeks have adopted if Themistokles hadn't been there to suggest fighting at Thermopylai? Would someone else have suggested it, or would they have gone with something entirely different?
Actually, I happen to know someone who is studying ancient Greek battles and war tactics. If you want, I could seek her opinion on that.

That would be awesome, as I don't have the slightest idea what they would pick.
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Aeetlrcreejl



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes to Japan!
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Hemicomputer



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
I know a guy by the name of Hasekura Tsunenaga took a ship from Japan to Rome via Mexico from 1613-1620, so there's no reason they couldn't get to North America or anything.
That would be neat! Then we might have the Japanese competing with some Europeans (the Dutch maybe?) for control of North America.
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