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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hemicomputer wrote:
Or coastal North American civilizations would have time develop seafaring technology and go invade Africa or Scandinavia or something.
The first ones to develop seafaring would probably have been the Pacific NorthWest, and the first place they'd have gone would probably have been Nippon; or possibly somewhere along the Northern part of the Pacific (East) Coast of East Asia.

But conceivably the first North Americans to successfully cross the ocean would have been on the East Coast. If so, they'd probably have been nearer Florida and Georgia and the Gulf Coast, or parts of Mexico or Meso-America, than places like Plymouth Rock and Newfoundland etc.

Or don't you think so?

But IMO the Meso-Americans would have been likeliest, and the major South Americans also highly likely, to have crossed the Ocean. Mayans or Aztecs or folks around those parts might have crossed the Atlantic to Africa or to Atlantic islands near the Atlantic coasts of Africa and/or Europe; Mesoamericans and Incans and various Andeans or Peruvians might have been likelier (or at least as likely) to make it into the Pacific instead (or as well) or earlier (or at the same time). Imagine if Thor Heyerdahl's Kon-Tiki scenario were true (he only tried to prove it was possible, not that it was true); suppose Polynesia were settled from South America instead of from SouthEast Asia (e.g. Formosa).

Any good reason why any of the above is false?
Which scenario is actually likeliest?

Maybe Aleutians making it to Sakharin (sp?) Island?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
Hemicomputer wrote:
Or coastal North American civilizations would have time develop seafaring technology and go invade Africa or Scandinavia or something.
The first ones to develop seafaring would probably have been the Pacific NorthWest, and the first place they'd have gone would probably have been Nippon; or possibly somewhere along the Northern part of the Pacific (East) Coast of East Asia.

If they did, however, I highly doubt that they'd get to Nihon before Nihon got to them.

Quote:
...
Any good reason why any of the above is false?
Which scenario is actually likeliest?

Maybe Aleutians making it to Sakharin (sp?) Island?


It's Sakhalin (you're getting it mixed up with the additive saccharin ^_^). In Japanese it's Karafuto.

I find all of them highly unlikely - it would be hundreds if not thousands of years before any Native American culture (with the possible exceptions of the Aztecs, Mayas or Incas) would develop that kind of technology. Perhaps one of the more advanced civs might get it in three or four hundred years, but don't forget - the most advanced civilization in the New World during the 1500s was at the most around the level of 700s BC Mesopotamia (and it doesn't help that Mesoamerica is the only place in the world that doesn't have iron deposits). I find it very unlikely that they would get to Europe or Asia before the Europeans or Asians got to them. Even if they did get there, it would likely be isolated groups of up to one or two hundred (especially if an organized empire wasn't behind it), which is far less than enough to significantly impact the European or Asian political scene. At the most, it would simply alert Europe or Asia to the presence of the new world.
Even if Europe didn't have the trade incentive to go after the Americas, someone at some point (almost certainly before 1600) realize, 'Hm. The world is round, but the area we know of it doesn't account for it's calculated circumference. I'd like to go see what does!' Whether they're European or Asian (probably Chinese) is the question.

Or the Persians would be just as much of a barrier to trade as the Arabs, or the Arabs would end up conquering Persia anyway, and things play out similar to how they did in OTL (the political scene may dictate that a different nation than OTL Christian Castille does it).


HOWEVER.
I did mention earlier that I would love to see contact between Polynesia and South America facilitated by an Easter Island <> Incas link, but the idea I got it from had the traders coming from Polynesia (around the 1000s), not from the Americas (the Polynesians were better sailors anyway).

If we prefer a China-discovers-the-new-world-Gavin-Menzies-was-actually-right thing, we can have that lightning doesn't strike the Forbidden City in 1421 (I think it was 1421), it doesn't burn to the ground, and the Ming continue having epic-sized navies. That version of the Ming government would very likely finance an eastward expedition.
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Hemicomputer



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
I find all of them highly unlikely - it would be hundreds if not thousands of years before any Native American culture (with the possible exceptions of the Aztecs, Mayas or Incas) would develop that kind of technology.... (and several other good points)
OK. Let's not have any of that happen then. I was just tossing off random ideas.

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
Even if Europe didn't have the trade incentive to go after the Americas, someone at some point (almost certainly before 1600) realize, 'Hm. The world is round, but the area we know of it doesn't account for it's calculated circumference. I'd like to go see what does!' Whether they're European or Asian (probably Chinese) is the question.
...
If we prefer a China-discovers-the-new-world-Gavin-Menzies-was-actually-right thing, we can have that lightning doesn't strike the Forbidden City in 1421 (I think it was 1421), it doesn't burn to the ground, and the Ming continue having epic-sized navies. That version of the Ming government would very likely finance an eastward expedition.
That sounds neat, although it does then give us a second POD.

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
Or the Persians would be just as much of a barrier to trade as the Arabs, or the Arabs would end up conquering Persia anyway, and things play out similar to how they did in OTL (the political scene may dictate that a different nation than OTL Christian Castille does it).
That seems more likely, yes.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hemicomputer wrote:
Tolkien_Freak wrote:
Even if Europe didn't have the trade incentive to go after the Americas, someone at some point (almost certainly before 1600) realize, 'Hm. The world is round, but the area we know of it doesn't account for it's calculated circumference. I'd like to go see what does!' Whether they're European or Asian (probably Chinese) is the question.
...
If we prefer a China-discovers-the-new-world-Gavin-Menzies-was-actually-right thing, we can have that lightning doesn't strike the Forbidden City in 1421 (I think it was 1421), it doesn't burn to the ground, and the Ming continue having epic-sized navies. That version of the Ming government would very likely finance an eastward expedition.
That sounds neat, although it does then give us a second POD.


I don't think having the second POD would be problematic, AFAIK Europe never really affected Asia before at least the 1500s.

I once played a game of Civilization 4 with a mod to make your game more historical (historical start dates and locations on a normal world map, a couple of extra things like a stability mechanic - the mod is called RFC), and while most of the time Europe overtakes the new world pretty well, the one time I actually played as a European power (the Netherlands) instead of Japan, I rushed to the new world, got there about 1500, and found the Aztecs half-occupied by and vassalized to China.
(I also played a game as the Incas, and my first contact with anyone outside of the new world was when I found that one of my cities was occupied by Japan.)

Quote:
Tolkien_Freak wrote:
Or the Persians would be just as much of a barrier to trade as the Arabs, or the Arabs would end up conquering Persia anyway, and things play out similar to how they did in OTL (the political scene may dictate that a different nation than OTL Christian Castille does it).
That seems more likely, yes.

Maybe we can have both - a new world that's half European and half Asian. That sounds fun! ^_^


EDIT: It seems Gavin Menzies was more wrong than I realized - Wikipedia has nothing about a lightning strike on the Forbidden City. We'd have to somehow change the Hongxi Emperor's mind about the voyages, or put somebody else in there who would allow them.


Last edited by Tolkien_Freak on Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Hemicomputer



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:

I once played a game of Civilization 4 with a mod to make your game more historical (historical start dates and locations on a normal world map, a couple of extra things like a stability mechanic - the mod is called RFC), and while most of the time Europe overtakes the new world pretty well, the one time I actually played as a European power (the Netherlands) instead of Japan, I rushed to the new world, got there about 1500, and found the Aztecs half-occupied by and vassalized to China.
(I also played a game as the Incas, and my first contact with anyone outside of the new world was when I found that one of my cities was occupied by Japan.)
That sounds like an interesting game. I've not heard of it before. Also, go Netherlands!

Tolkien_Freak wrote:

Maybe we can have both - a new world that's half European and half Asian. That sounds fun! ^_^
Agreed!
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hemicomputer wrote:
That sounds like an interesting game. I've not heard of it before. Also, go Netherlands!


Civilization 4 (with the latest expansion) is in my opinion the best video game ever (and that's not hyperbole). The vast quantity of really good and varied mods for it give it an excellent replay value. I like that mod (RFC (Rhye's and Fall of Civilization, the guy who made it's name is Rhye)) and a fantasy mod called FFH2 (Fall From Heaven) best.
Japan is massively fun on the lower difficulty of RFC - I've had an empire extend from Tibet to the Mississippi, and from the Straits of Malacca to north of Lake Baikal (all at once!). It was pretty hard to keep from falling apart, and before I built the Internet I was way behind technologically. (On higher difficulties it's more realistic.)
The world wars that always seem to happen between 1900 - 1930 and 1930-1950 are always fun.

Quote:
Tolkien_Freak wrote:

Maybe we can have both - a new world that's half European and half Asian. That sounds fun! ^_^
Agreed!

Woot! If that happens, I bet we have an Asian or at least divided Australia, and the same could go for India.
We could have China be the Asian Spain and Japan the Britain - China grabs all the previously-occupied land (from the Incas or something) before 1600, Japan settles the rest of it between 1600 and 1800. China then really loses effectiveness (especially after the dynasty change from Ming to Qing during the 1600s), and Japan takes over the naval superpower status.

Now we have the question of who gets there first, which won't be answered until we slodge through European history up till then.

EDIT: Just realized we'd still need a Japanese POD to make them a world power instead of a hikikomori.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
Hemicomputer wrote:
That sounds like an interesting game. I've not heard of it before. Also, go Netherlands!


Civilization 4 (with the latest expansion) is in my opinion the best video game ever (and that's not hyperbole). The vast quantity of really good and varied mods for it give it an excellent replay value. I like that mod (RFC (Rhye's and Fall of Civilization, the guy who made it's name is Rhye)) and a fantasy mod called FFH2 (Fall From Heaven) best.
Japan is massively fun on the lower difficulty of RFC - I've had an empire extend from Tibet to the Mississippi, and from the Straits of Malacca to north of Lake Baikal (all at once!). It was pretty hard to keep from falling apart, and before I built the Internet I was way behind technologically. (On higher difficulties it's more realistic.)
The world wars that always seem to happen between 1900 - 1930 and 1930-1950 are always fun.
Cool! Does it run on PC? Mac?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PC is what it's mainly for, but there is a Mac version and AFAIK the latest expansion is on Mac too, but I'm not sure.
It comes with an older version of RFC, but the newer one is better. You can get it and FFH here, somewhere.

(I also refer you to the forum/other games/Never Ending Stories category. Funness. (I'm T_F on there.))

It may or may not be fairly cheap - the game itself is three, if not four years old, and the expansion is at least one, maybe two. It's just so awesome that it may still be expensive.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All right! I've read the whole thread, and have some comments etc

Quote:

What's always most fun is having minuscule PODs make huge impacts on history.

Definitely!

Quote:
The Incan Empire is not conquered.

Definitely!

Quote:
We could also mix in a 'Cortés fails to escape La Noche Triste' and a 'Pizarro-equivalent comes later' so that the Incas already have firearms from the Aztecs by the time any Spanish get there.
The Aztecs also would not be conquered in that TL, and we would end up with two (possibly three, throwing in the Maya) fully fledged empires in the Americas that any European empire would have to use the same sized army to conquer them as to conquer their neighbors.

Great!

Quote:
In that case, if I'm not mistaken, we would have the whole American history rewritten. I guess what we have then is North and South America filled with 3 big countries until the WWI (at least). And it wouldn't be inhabited with English-speaking people. Would that mean French (or some other language) still being the lingua franka? How about Latvian for the sake of humour?
Then what would the English, Spanish and Portuguese people do if they didn't have America to conquer?

Good questions (refer to some comments I posted below re: British/Spanish empires etc and who could impact on the Americas etc).

Quote:
One of the interesting things to note in OTL is that before 1950, the only non-Western nations who had competent Western-style militaries at any time were Japan and the Ottoman Empire. I'd like to see many more in our althist.

Definitely!

Quote:
June 30, 1520 AD: Cristóbal de Olea is chosen by the Aztecs to be beheaded, and thus fails to save Cortés's life.
Aftermath: Cortés's expedition fails, the Aztecs are left with European weapons and cavalry, Spain reverts to Governor Velazquez's strategy of trading with the Aztecs, Spain's attention focuses back on the Mediterranean and Pizarro is never sent to Perú (but North Africa becomes strong Spanish territory).

June 18-24, 1582 AD: Mitsuhide Akechi is temporarily immobilized by a brief illness, and misses his opportunity to kill an unguarded Oda Nobunaga at Honnou-ji.
Aftermath: Oda Nobunaga is left to finish unifying Japan, Sakoku is never implemented so Japan remains open to foreign influences, Japan slowly converts to Catholicism, Japan becomes a colonial empire.


Eg. from Persia? (Where did Catholicism come from if Persia conquered the Roman Empire?)

Quote:
First: Don't forget the butterfly effect. Secondly: Don't underestimate the impact of the butterfly effect.


Very Happy Right!

Quote:
I think Greece being invaded is a POD big enough to let us erase all the other history of OTL and do whatever we want - the marvelousness of the Butterfly Effect

Tolkien_Freak:
I don't think having the second POD would be problematic, AFAIK Europe never really affected Asia before at least the 1500s.


I agree: I think that China/Japan were reasonably isolated (by at least Persia, then India), and as far as I know, they didn't do much travelling westward. In any case, it wouldn't have impacted them much, I think. I really like the whole China/Japan battle idea, and the battle over Mesoamerica by the new powers. However, if Persia invaded Greece, where would the Roman Empire have come from, and then also the cultures of Britain, France, Germany, Italy, etc? So Spain/Portugal invading the Americas would most likely not happen at the same time it did in OTL.

Quote:
I think the Greece one works well on its own. If Greece was conquered by Aryanam, then Europeans would likely have an easyer time getting access to Asian silk and spice. Perhaps then they would not have to try to find the Northwest Passage, and the Americas would not have been invaded as soon or for the same reasons. Perhaps then Nippon might reach it first. Or coastal North American civilizations would have time develop seafaring technology and go invade Africa or Scandinavia or something.

Hmmm Very Happy

Quote:
Hemicomputer:
The first ones to develop seafaring would probably have been the Pacific NorthWest, and the first place they'd have gone would probably have been Nippon; or possibly somewhere along the Northern part of the Pacific (East) Coast of East Asia.
eldin raigmore:
But conceivably the first North Americans to successfully cross the ocean would have been on the East Coast. If so, they'd probably have been nearer Florida and Georgia and the Gulf Coast, or parts of Mexico or Meso-America, than places like Plymouth Rock and Newfoundland etc.


I think I agree with Hemicomputer which would develop seafaring technology first; the currents in the North Pacific are also easier to go from the NW Americas to Japan etc, AFAIK. I don't know as much about the technology etc of the East coast peoples, but Mexico etc seemed to be doing pretty well with technology, it's definitely not inconceivable that they would travel north (one of their legends spoke of their god Quetzelcoatl coming from the North (he is also depicted as being caucasian, with a white beard which Native American's can't grow :S).)
However, I wonder about the Eastern Amazonian peoples and Phoenecians as well; and that's also the closest the two continents are...

Quote:
Imagine if Thor Heyerdahl's Kon-Tiki scenario were true (he only tried to prove it was possible, not that it was true); suppose Polynesia were settled from South America instead of from SouthEast Asia (e.g. Formosa).


Neat theory, I read that book Very Happy. If that were true, and it does seem possible, there could have been a war between our althist Japan's colonies and the Polynesian Inca. However, linguistic evidence says the languages Polynesians speak is more related to those of SE Asia; if Heyerdahl was right, then the Polynesian Inca would have had to be conquered hundreds of years ago, and I don't remember any mention of those in the oral traditions mentioned in the book.
I think the most likely, if that's what the Incans did, would be a meeting (maybe/likely conflict etc) between the two colonies, and a definite reason for the Japanese to keep pressing Eastward.

Quote:
Maybe Aleutians making it to Sakharin (sp?) Island?


I have to agree with eldin raigmore; maybe eventually, but what would the reason for it be? I don't see it happening without major reason.

Quote:
Even if Europe didn't have the trade incentive to go after the Americas, someone at some point (almost certainly before 1600) realize, 'Hm. The world is round, but the area we know of it doesn't account for it's calculated circumference. I'd like to go see what does!' Whether they're European or Asian (probably Chinese) is the question.


Eratosthenes did that, as well drew up a map of the world ~250BC. His work was in the Library of Alexandria when it burned down. Hey, can we have it NOT burn down please? That would be great Wink 4 possible times of destruction though, we'd have to pick one. Maybe Persia etcwould be better about knowledge etc than Christianity; the prophet Muhammad said "Go in search of knowledge, even if it takes you to China."

Quote:
If we prefer a China-discovers-the-new-world-Gavin-Menzies-was-actually-right thing, we can have that lightning doesn't strike the Forbidden City in 1421 (I think it was 1421), it doesn't burn to the ground, and the Ming continue having epic-sized navies. That version of the Ming government would very likely finance an eastward expedition.

Great Very Happy And it would have epic battles with Japan over all the territory, as happened in WWII, and forever before that (I seem to recall a great naval battle between the two where a cyclone wiped out one of the armies, I can't remember which though, probably China's, to fascilitate Japanese independance).

Quote:
eldin raigmore:
Or the Persians would be just as much of a barrier to trade as the Arabs, or the Arabs would end up conquering Persia anyway, and things play out similar to how they did in OTL (the political scene may dictate that a different nation than OTL Christian Castille does it).
Tolkien_Freak:
That seems more likely, yes.


So we still have a tense situation in the Middle East, between the powers of Arabia and Persia, what about offshoots of the now Persian Empire, like what happened with the Roman Empire?

Quote:
Maybe we can have both - a new world that's half European and half Asian. That sounds fun! ^_^


Very Happy

Other thoughts:

Persia Conquering etc -> What for Industrial Revolution?
When for what inventions?

Japan/China conflict -> Japan leading colonization of Polynesia, Australia, etc (eventually Americas?)

Thanks for letting me participate in this! I'm getting Civilizations 4 now, so let's see what crazy things can happen with history Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aert wrote:
Quote:
June 30, 1520 AD: Cristóbal de Olea is chosen by the Aztecs to be beheaded, and thus fails to save Cortés's life.
Aftermath: Cortés's expedition fails, the Aztecs are left with European weapons and cavalry, Spain reverts to Governor Velazquez's strategy of trading with the Aztecs, Spain's attention focuses back on the Mediterranean and Pizarro is never sent to Perú (but North Africa becomes strong Spanish territory).

June 18-24, 1582 AD: Mitsuhide Akechi is temporarily immobilized by a brief illness, and misses his opportunity to kill an unguarded Oda Nobunaga at Honnou-ji.
Aftermath: Oda Nobunaga is left to finish unifying Japan, Sakoku is never implemented so Japan remains open to foreign influences, Japan slowly converts to Catholicism, Japan becomes a colonial empire.


Eg. from Persia? (Where did Catholicism come from if Persia conquered the Roman Empire?)

I don't see Persia conquering Rome. It's just too large of an empire for its existence to be plausible for a period of more than 100 years absolute maximum.
If they went for it, it would mean either marching through all of Illyricum, or mounting a massive transport operation to conquer the Greek remnants in southern Italy (which would be Roman if they waited another 200 years, though).
We do have yet to figure out how the Punic Wars will end up working out. Greece might even break free of Persia at some point.

On the topic of Christianity, we may end up with an epic Christians vs. Zoroastrians civil war during the 100s. Fun ^_^

Quote:
Quote:
First: Don't forget the butterfly effect. Secondly: Don't underestimate the impact of the butterfly effect.


Very Happy Right!

IDK if I mentioned this before, but also don't forget that it's not too hard to have things fall back into a semblance of OTL after a while.
We'll have to balance the butterfly effect with re-merging.

Quote:
Quote:
I think Greece being invaded is a POD big enough to let us erase all the other history of OTL and do whatever we want - the marvelousness of the Butterfly Effect

Tolkien_Freak:
I don't think having the second POD would be problematic, AFAIK Europe never really affected Asia before at least the 1500s.


I agree: I think that China/Japan were reasonably isolated (by at least Persia, then India), and as far as I know, they didn't do much travelling westward. In any case, it wouldn't have impacted them much, I think. I really like the whole China/Japan battle idea, and the battle over Mesoamerica by the new powers. However, if Persia invaded Greece, where would the Roman Empire have come from, and then also the cultures of Britain, France, Germany, Italy, etc? So Spain/Portugal invading the Americas would most likely not happen at the same time it did in OTL.

The Romans would still be there (the Roman Republic started in 509 BC, the Persian Wars were in the 490s and 480s BC), but they would have a VERY different culture. There may be some Greek influence from the colonies in southern Italy, but since the 300s-BC Greek cultural explosion never happens, there would be no 'classical-style' architecture, no huge emphasis on oratory, no Greco-Roman pantheon, no epic poetry (at least, not in the style of Homer), and either a whole lot more Etruscan influence or a whole lot more Persian influence.
We have yet to see what 'western civilization' ends up looking like, but it's probably heavily influenced by Persia. It could also be influenced by Etruria if the Romans don't take to Persian culture like they did to Greek OTL, but that seems at least somewhat less likely than Persian.
Britain (at least up until 1066) could end up being very similar - I can easily see a conquest by Saxons .I would hope that it's not as total as it was OTL, but I think we can pull that off if we time the invasions right - AFAIK, the reason Old English totally won out over Celtic languages OTL was because the invasion happened right in the aftermath of a devastating plague. We might even end up with a Britain split in three - Welsh, Gaelic and Saxon. There might be a unification, but it seems like the linguistic variety would preclude its stability.
As for the rest of Europe, we have to see how the Germanic invasions of the 400s and on play out with whatever's left of what would likely still end up being the Roman Empire. In fact, the Roman Empire could end up lasting significantly longer with half of the OTL one under Persian control (if Persia survives that long). Rome only has to deal with holding Western Europe and western North Africa, instead of Western Europe, North Africa, Egypt, the Levant, Anatolia, Greece, Illyricum and Dacia.

Quote:
Quote:
Imagine if Thor Heyerdahl's Kon-Tiki scenario were true (he only tried to prove it was possible, not that it was true); suppose Polynesia were settled from South America instead of from SouthEast Asia (e.g. Formosa).


Neat theory, I read that book Very Happy. If that were true, and it does seem possible, there could have been a war between our althist Japan's colonies and the Polynesian Inca. However, linguistic evidence says the languages Polynesians speak is more related to those of SE Asia; if Heyerdahl was right, then the Polynesian Inca would have had to be conquered hundreds of years ago, and I don't remember any mention of those in the oral traditions mentioned in the book.
I think the most likely, if that's what the Incans did, would be a meeting (maybe/likely conflict etc) between the two colonies, and a definite reason for the Japanese to keep pressing Eastward.

On second thought, I would LOVE to see a colonial Incan Empire, but I only see it happening after the introduction of 1500s technology (from wherever).

(Thor Heyerdahl is Norwegian! Go Norwegians! W00t! [/familial_patriotism])

Quote:
Quote:
Even if Europe didn't have the trade incentive to go after the Americas, someone at some point (almost certainly before 1600) realize, 'Hm. The world is round, but the area we know of it doesn't account for it's calculated circumference. I'd like to go see what does!' Whether they're European or Asian (probably Chinese) is the question.


Eratosthenes did that, as well drew up a map of the world ~250BC. His work was in the Library of Alexandria when it burned down. Hey, can we have it NOT burn down please? That would be great Wink 4 possible times of destruction though, we'd have to pick one. Maybe Persia etcwould be better about knowledge etc than Christianity; the prophet Muhammad said "Go in search of knowledge, even if it takes you to China."

We could even have Christianity better about knowledge than OTL Christianity.
I would LOVE the preservation of the Library, but there's one problem - if there's no Alexandros, theres no Alexandria, and thus no Library. We can have another one pop up.

IDEA: Instead of the Greek cultural boom of the 300s being restricted mainly to Athens and a couple other places, the philosophers involved could use the wider-reaching central authority to gain wider knowledge and acceptance of their ideas. This could create a knowledge-hungry Persian culture, which has a much bigger impact than a knowledge-hungry Greek one did OTL. That would not only give us a Library (or two, or three), but create a nice Persian culture for Rome to rip off, and we might end up with an Iranian Orthodox Christian church that has a position on learning similar to both OTL and TTL (this timeline) Islam. I wonder what impact that'll have on the TTL Roman branch of the church, if any.

Quote:
Quote:
If we prefer a China-discovers-the-new-world-Gavin-Menzies-was-actually-right thing, we can have that lightning doesn't strike the Forbidden City in 1421 (I think it was 1421), it doesn't burn to the ground, and the Ming continue having epic-sized navies. That version of the Ming government would very likely finance an eastward expedition.

Great Very Happy And it would have epic battles with Japan over all the territory, as happened in WWII, and forever before that (I seem to recall a great naval battle between the two where a cyclone wiped out one of the armies, I can't remember which though, probably China's, to fascilitate Japanese independance).

The typhoon one is probably one of the two Mongol/Yuan Chinese invasions of Japan in the 1200s - that's where the term 'kamikaze' comes from (and it's also the only time in history where samurai fought together for the good of Japan as a whole). I think it was an aborted landing instead of a sea battle - the Japanese defensive line was fully land-based. (Slightly off-topic: Best naval battle EVAR is the Battle of Tsushima in 1905. Look it up on Wikipedia.)
It would be interesting to have a Chinese-bloc vs. Japanese-bloc war in/around the 1940's - we could either have Japan and it's former colonies vs. China and its former colonies; or Japan and China's former colonies vs. China and Japan's former colonies if the former colonies hate their colonizer enough.
That China vs. Japan conflict could easily be a major theater of any world war that might go on at the time.

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eldin raigmore:
Or the Persians would be just as much of a barrier to trade as the Arabs, or the Arabs would end up conquering Persia anyway, and things play out similar to how they did in OTL (the political scene may dictate that a different nation than OTL Christian Castille does it).
Tolkien_Freak:
That seems more likely, yes.


So we still have a tense situation in the Middle East, between the powers of Arabia and Persia, what about offshoots of the now Persian Empire, like what happened with the Roman Empire?

I see three main groups: Christian Post-Roman Europe (and possible crusader states), Christian Post-Persian Middle East/Anatolia/Greece, and Arabia (possibly fractured at various points in time) plus Islamic Post-Persian Middle East/Anatolia/Greece. There might also be some Zoroastrian states hanging around to make stuff even more confusing.
(And it'll get even worse when the Turks show up in the 1000s and the Mongols in the 1200s ^_^)

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Persia Conquering etc -> What for Industrial Revolution?
When for what inventions?

It could end up being WAY earlier, if we follow my above idea pertaining to Libraries and Hero's steam engine sparks some ideas. It could also be WAY later, if the lack of Greek culture in Rome majorly slows down development in Europe - though this seems unlikely to me. The most likely scenario IMO is that it happens around when it did anyway, or maybe slightly earlier - the rate of technological growth would probably end up being the same, unless the Roman Christian church adopts a pro-science position (which is possible but not likely). I don't think there needs to be a cultural precedent already there in order for the medieval era to end - if there isn't a strong enough Roman culture (and there probably will be anyway), European artists can just create their own culture.

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Japan/China conflict -> Japan leading colonization of Polynesia, Australia, etc (eventually Americas?)

Most certainly, especially if they end up being a counterpart to OTL Britain (and possibly a TTL analog for OTL Britain).

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Thanks for letting me participate in this! I'm getting Civilizations 4 now, so let's see what crazy things can happen with history Very Happy

YW! If you like 4X strategy games, you'll love Civ4.

Weirdest thing I think I've ever seen on RFC (I didn't see it, someone else posted it on that forum) is a Persian Korea. The Independent city that spawns there is generally unprotected, so when Persia sends out its starting horsemen it finds Seoul and just walks in. Apparently it happens a lot.


This has to be the longest post I've ever written.
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Aert



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't see Persia conquering Rome. It's just too large of an empire for its existence to be plausible for a period of more than 100 years absolute maximum.
If they went for it, it would mean either marching through all of Illyricum, or mounting a massive transport operation to conquer the Greek remnants in southern Italy (which would be Roman if they waited another 200 years, though).
We do have yet to figure out how the Punic Wars will end up working out. Greece might even break free of Persia at some point.


Makes sense. I forgot all the stuff happening around the Roman Empire at the time. During all this, what were the Guals doing? How about India?
If Greece gets out from under Persia, (or just in any case), and the Libraries are established, then I can definitely see the Industrial Revolution coming a lot sooner. I doubt later because AFAIK it was the decline in Empires that lead to a decrease in standards of living etc and to the Dark Ages (ominous voice here Wink). If Persia or whoever stays in power, all of Greece's knowledge, combined with that of Persia/etc, and Arabia's math and medicine (I hope I'm attributing those correctly), then the ruling empire could have gone very far. Perhaps with the mass of information and innovators (due to the safety of the cities etc), the ruling power could create a much more effective Empire than Rome did, and hold the mass of land better due to better technology etc (weapons, response times via ship, medicine, what have you).

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On second thought, I would LOVE to see a colonial Incan Empire, but I only see it happening after the introduction of 1500s technology (from wherever).


I could see them eventually getting into conflict with the other Mesoamerican peoples there, maybe the Aztec/Mayan, Amazons, etc, but I agree a colonial power would take more time. They definitely had the skill (roads, mathematics, moving large stones etc), but not metal, so not so much for great weapons. However, their cities were ideally situated for defense, so maybe they wouldn't need to to keep their territory; conquering is another issue.

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IDEA: Instead of the Greek cultural boom of the 300s being restricted mainly to Athens and a couple other places, the philosophers involved could use the wider-reaching central authority to gain wider knowledge and acceptance of their ideas. This could create a knowledge-hungry Persian culture, which has a much bigger impact than a knowledge-hungry Greek one did OTL. That would not only give us a Library (or two, or three), but create a nice Persian culture for Rome to rip off, and we might end up with an Iranian Orthodox Christian church that has a position on learning similar to both OTL and TTL (this timeline) Islam. I wonder what impact that'll have on the TTL Roman branch of the church, if any.


Great! The Library of Alexandria actually (actively!) went in search of new books - borrowing every book that came into their harbours, copying them, and storing them in the Library - scholars, philosophers etc from everywhere came to Alexandria, so great! I'm thinking if Persia held the city, maybe contact/info. trade with Arabia, India, and the Far East would be easier (already on the Silk Road), and they are ideally situated on Constantinople (between Cairo, Rome, Arabia, and the civilizations farther East. They are protected by the mountains to the North, and have bodies of water all around them for quick passage/escape/attack. I can see the Guals (or whoever they would have become), and maybe the eventual Russian nomads maybe being a conflict; the Celts/Bretons/Saxons not for a while, at least.

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Best naval battle EVAR is the Battle of Tsushima in 1905. Look it up on Wikipedia.)


Wow! That is pretty major, and a definite + on the whole Naval Fleet thing for Japan (now if only the politicians etc were more outgoing, instead of reserved... [well, maybe it would have provoked war between them and Britain/Netherlands over the East Indies and Australia/New Zealand, and eventually USA with Hawai'i]).

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(And it'll get even worse when the Turks show up in the 1000s and the Mongols in the 1200s ^_^)


The Mongols had such amazing writing Very Happy Like Arabic does; a friend of mine has a great book about the explorations/etc of Ghengis Khan, maybe he can lend a hand with that.

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This has to be the longest post I've ever written.

Very Happy same - lots of quotes and topics/ideas to respond to Very Happy
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aert wrote:
Quote:
I don't see Persia conquering Rome. It's just too large of an empire for its existence to be plausible for a period of more than 100 years absolute maximum.
If they went for it, it would mean either marching through all of Illyricum, or mounting a massive transport operation to conquer the Greek remnants in southern Italy (which would be Roman if they waited another 200 years, though).
We do have yet to figure out how the Punic Wars will end up working out. Greece might even break free of Persia at some point.


Makes sense. I forgot all the stuff happening around the Roman Empire at the time. During all this, what were the Guals doing? How about India?

Probably what they were doing OTL - The Gauls will be raiding Rome (they sacked in in the 300s BC (I forgot the year)); the Indians have already founded Buddhism, and the Maurya Dynasty gets started in the late 300s.

Quote:
If Greece gets out from under Persia, (or just in any case), and the Libraries are established, then I can definitely see the Industrial Revolution coming a lot sooner. I doubt later because AFAIK it was the decline in Empires that lead to a decrease in standards of living etc and to the Dark Ages (ominous voice here Wink). If Persia or whoever stays in power, all of Greece's knowledge, combined with that of Persia/etc, and Arabia's math and medicine (I hope I'm attributing those correctly), then the ruling empire could have gone very far. Perhaps with the mass of information and innovators (due to the safety of the cities etc), the ruling power could create a much more effective Empire than Rome did, and hold the mass of land better due to better technology etc (weapons, response times via ship, medicine, what have you).

It's possible, but I see a TTL Persia starting to fall apart around the 400s AD anyway - the Christian/Zoroastrian war in the 100s will be a major blow to them, and starting in the 300s Germanic invaders from Eastern Europe will start causing problems in Greece (if they still have it) and Anatolia. It might survive until the 600s when Arabia comes in, but after that I see a Christians vs. Muslims (maybe vs. Zoroastrians) set of wars that lasts sporadically well into the 800s (and the Umayyad Caliphate could easily end up not being the singular Muslim state). I don't see a very well-unified Middle East going into the Middle Ages, and it'll get worse if the Western Europeans start crusading like they did OTL.
We need to decide if Greece ever gets out of Persian rule before the Empire falls apart finally - if so, why and how? If not, why and how?

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Quote:
On second thought, I would LOVE to see a colonial Incan Empire, but I only see it happening after the introduction of 1500s technology (from wherever).


I could see them eventually getting into conflict with the other Mesoamerican peoples there, maybe the Aztec/Mayan, Amazons, etc, but I agree a colonial power would take more time. They definitely had the skill (roads, mathematics, moving large stones etc), but not metal, so not so much for great weapons. However, their cities were ideally situated for defense, so maybe they wouldn't need to to keep their territory; conquering is another issue.

At the very least they could expand even farther in South America. I wonder what issues will bring the fall of their empire.
(They can solve the metal problem by trading with Europe or Asia.)

Quote:
Quote:
IDEA: Instead of the Greek cultural boom of the 300s being restricted mainly to Athens and a couple other places, the philosophers involved could use the wider-reaching central authority to gain wider knowledge and acceptance of their ideas. This could create a knowledge-hungry Persian culture, which has a much bigger impact than a knowledge-hungry Greek one did OTL. That would not only give us a Library (or two, or three), but create a nice Persian culture for Rome to rip off, and we might end up with an Iranian Orthodox Christian church that has a position on learning similar to both OTL and TTL (this timeline) Islam. I wonder what impact that'll have on the TTL Roman branch of the church, if any.


Great! The Library of Alexandria actually (actively!) went in search of new books - borrowing every book that came into their harbours, copying them, and storing them in the Library - scholars, philosophers etc from everywhere came to Alexandria, so great! I'm thinking if Persia held the city, maybe contact/info. trade with Arabia, India, and the Far East would be easier (already on the Silk Road), and they are ideally situated on Constantinople (between Cairo, Rome, Arabia, and the civilizations farther East. They are protected by the mountains to the North, and have bodies of water all around them for quick passage/escape/attack. I can see the Guals (or whoever they would have become), and maybe the eventual Russian nomads maybe being a conflict; the Celts/Bretons/Saxons not for a while, at least.

Hmm...
AFAIK Alexandros founded Alexandria in its OTL location, IDK if there was a city there before that. However, the library might end up in Byzantion (which will have a very different history itself), and there could be another one somewhere else. Maybe some Persian will end up founding a city in OTL Alexandria's spot, and there can be one there too. (It's a good spot, there's really no good reason to pass it up if you're looking for a spot to found a city anyway.)
If the Persians get really knowledge-hungry, they can steal an idea from my Emitaru - such that it's a law for the content of major libraries to be exactly the same, any books one has must be copied and acquired by the others.
IDK how well the libraries will survive the Germanic onslaughts of the 300s and 400s, the one at Byzantion would be especially vulnerable.

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Quote:
Best naval battle EVAR is the Battle of Tsushima in 1905. Look it up on Wikipedia.)


Wow! That is pretty major, and a definite + on the whole Naval Fleet thing for Japan (now if only the politicians etc were more outgoing, instead of reserved... [well, maybe it would have provoked war between them and Britain/Netherlands over the East Indies and Australia/New Zealand, and eventually USA with Hawai'i]).

Not sure I quite understand that.... Are you talking about possible TTL impact of that OTL battle? I don't even know if Russia will be in a position to do that in the first place - they might still be halfway across the planet! ^_^
That whole area of coastal Eastern Russia might end up being Chinese or Japanese.

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(And it'll get even worse when the Turks show up in the 1000s and the Mongols in the 1200s ^_^)


The Mongols had such amazing writing Very Happy Like Arabic does; a friend of mine has a great book about the explorations/etc of Ghengis Khan, maybe he can lend a hand with that.

Yes, Mongolian is AMAZING.
Great! The more knowledgeable people we have, the better ^_^

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Quote:
This has to be the longest post I've ever written.

Very Happy same - lots of quotes and topics/ideas to respond to Very Happy
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Real Life there were once quite advanced civilized societies in "Black Africa". They were Islamic, but tolerated non-Muslims and traded with powerful and rich and big non-Islamic neighbors/trading partners.

In NorthEast Africa (or the Eastern part of North Africa, or the Northern part of East Africa, or something) there arose an Islamic fundamentalist movement who thought that not only all non-Muslims should be wiped out, but also, all Muslims who didn't want to wipe out all non-Muslims, should be wiped out. Some of the leaders of some of the Islamic countries became part of this fundamentalism, and turned their attention westward and southward and wiped out the richesse, power, populousness, influence, reach, and cosmopolitanism of the black Muslims.

What if that had never happened? Could West Africans from, say, Gambia or Morocco or Guinea-Bissau or Mauretania or Senegal or Sierra Leone, have made it to the close parts of Brazil, say, Fernando de Noronha, or Natal in Rio Grande do Norte, or the Rocas Atoll, or anywhere else in Rio Grande do Norte, or Ceara, or Paraiba (particularly Ponto do Seixas), or Pernambuco, or Alagoas?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
What if that had never happened? Could West Africans from, say, Gambia or Morocco or Guinea-Bissau or Mauretania or Senegal or Sierra Leone, have made it to the close parts of Brazil, say, Fernando de Noronha, or Natal in Rio Grande do Norte, or the Rocas Atoll, or anywhere else in Rio Grande do Norte, or Ceara, or Paraiba (particularly Ponto do Seixas), or Pernambuco, or Alagoas?


I don't know, I don't know anything about the tech level of those Muslim nations. It seems plausible, but they probably would have had to have carrack-level ships before they could get there. It probably wouldn't have been before 1500, but they might be able to at some point.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick clarification (I've been pondering): so we were discussing both surviving Native American empires and Asian colonization of America - do we pull off both? If so, how?

I can easily see China overpowering some part of pre-Columbian civilization, but I'd be curious if we can have the Aztecs and Incas survive both Spain AND China.
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Aert



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, China also had gunpowder right? They had the naval abilities, where the Incan didn't (even if we're to assume Heyerdahl was right), but I imagine the Incan would prefer to fight on their own land, where they know the territory and have the advantage of being higher up on the hills etc the whole way.

I think if we have the Americas form an alliance against Spain/Portugal after Cortes and (Pizarro? - Portuguese guy I can't remember), they could be much better prepared for other invasions. Like someone said earlier, they would have the weapons, and quickly learn to use it. Also, the Incan would then be forewarned and ready for that Portuguese? missionary who destroyed a large portion of their culture.

When did the Japanese become more or less rivals with China? I remember Japan didn't like the way things were going, went to the islands of Japan, and started their own culture, but I don't know much else. When did their tactics of banzaii come into practice? Ninja? Samurai?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed, if Cortés fails and word reaches the Inca, they would be quick to get gunpowder and such weaponry. I can see them fending off China, but then what does China get? Maybe some part of Panama or that area - Patagonia isn't worth the effort. Maybe they'd take some of the Incan land and leave the rest. (Maybe bits of the Californian and Mexican west coasts, at least Oregon and north would be Japanese.)

I think if the situation in Europe ends up similar to how it was during that time OTL, Pizarro would never have been sent from Spain - the only reason he was was because Cortés made conquering the natives look very very easy. The OTL king of Spain at that time was really intending to focus more on the Mediterranean, and so if the Cortés analog failed we would probably have a bigger Spanish-analog presence in North Africa rather than the New World.

Quote:
When did the Japanese become more or less rivals with China? I remember Japan didn't like the way things were going, went to the islands of Japan, and started their own culture, but I don't know much else. When did their tactics of banzaii come into practice? Ninja? Samurai?

IDK about the 'rivals' question - mostly up until 1600 they had their own problems to deal with, and then until 1853 they ignored the fact that the rest of the world existed. I think they've always had a distinct culture - originally the islands were inhabited by ancestors of the modern Ainu people, but the modern Japanese were there by at the very latest the 600s BC (their traditional founding date for the monarchy is February 11, 660 BC), and they first appear in Chinese records in 57 AD. In the 700s they supported one Korean army against another Chinese-supported Korean army, but I think by the 1200s they were engrossed enough in their own chaos not to bother with anyone else's.
Banzai charges are more of a WWII thing (when the Japanese soldiers new they couldn't win, they just decided to go berserk and take down as many Americans as they could before they died). Ninja IDK, but samurai in some form probably existed starting in the 700s or before, and the sort of clan-warfare culture really got started in the aftermath of the Genpei War from 1180 to 1185. (The whole 'honor to the death, never retreat from battle' thing was more of a 1700s invention though, a product of the samurai not having anything to do and thus trying to define their usefulness in a peaceful, unified Japan.)
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Aert



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If China failed to defeat the Incans, then they probably would have gone north yeah; there were Aztec/etc cultures at least as far south as Belize though, so I don't know how far north exactly. Also, what would China gain from being there but not ruling anyone? Would they go after the medicinal (and 'medicinal' Razz) plants there? The jungle is pretty dense in a lot of places; maybe they wouldn't like the climate... I guess they could have done what Canada/America did: say "I own this continent!" and marched on further later.

(side note): The Ainu culture/language survived? I thought they died out.

Anyway, I thought the kamikaze was specifically WWII, but banzai came from the samurai training. Although most of the samurai training I imagine would be less about the banzai and more the balance of the attack/knowing your enemy etc. But as far as I remember, it was a 'one hit one kill' rule (and the katanas were definitely up to it!).

So relating this back to the althist: we could definitely have China/Japan battling over naval supremecy, especially in the Pacific isles (conduit to the Americas). By the time they both arrived, I can again see disputes over the land, but not until they figure out something with the native empires. Either a truce, battle, or alliance.

So yeah, maybe we should start making a map/timeline/animated gif of the major empires in our althist, figuring out where they expanded to, what the major events (and PODs) are, and what were the results.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aert wrote:
If China failed to defeat the Incans, then they probably would have gone north yeah; there were Aztec/etc cultures at least as far south as Belize though, so I don't know how far north exactly. Also, what would China gain from being there but not ruling anyone? Would they go after the medicinal (and 'medicinal' Razz) plants there? The jungle is pretty dense in a lot of places; maybe they wouldn't like the climate... I guess they could have done what Canada/America did: say "I own this continent!" and marched on further later.

Probably. It's not like there wasn't anyone there, they just hadn't crystallized into civilizations yet - more like tribal stuff. They probably would have just arbitrarily claimed the land, and maybe sent colonists there later.

Quote:
(side note): The Ainu culture/language survived? I thought they died out.

They're damn close, but still alive barely. There's about 100 native Ainu speakers left, but most of them are really old.

Quote:
Anyway, I thought the kamikaze was specifically WWII, but banzai came from the samurai training. Although most of the samurai training I imagine would be less about the banzai and more the balance of the attack/knowing your enemy etc. But as far as I remember, it was a 'one hit one kill' rule (and the katanas were definitely up to it!).

Hm. IDK about that, I just know about banzai from WWII. For all I know, it could be from that era. I'll look it up on Wikipedia later.
EDIT: According to Wikipedia, it is a WWII thing.

Quote:
So relating this back to the althist: we could definitely have China/Japan battling over naval supremecy, especially in the Pacific isles (conduit to the Americas). By the time they both arrived, I can again see disputes over the land, but not until they figure out something with the native empires. Either a truce, battle, or alliance.

Wait - truce, battle or alliance with the natives, or between China and Japan? I'm not quite sure what you meant there.
I do see quite a few minor wars over minor islands throughout the 1600s and 1700s, probably into the 1800s.

Quote:
So yeah, maybe we should start making a map/timeline/animated gif of the major empires in our althist, figuring out where they expanded to, what the major events (and PODs) are, and what were the results.

That would be good. I've been waiting for feedback from Hemi's friend so that we could get all the details done immediately, but that's probably not necessary.
So lessee-

We got Persia from 500s BC to ~400s or maybe ~600s AD
Rome from 200s BC to whenever they end up collapsing (could be 400s, could be later)
Various European states after that
We'll see who goes colonial (or who there is to go colonial, we don't even know what the map'll look like ^_^)

Aztecs from 1450s to ?
Incas from whenever they started to ?

China colonially from sometime around 1500 to ?
Japan colonially from early 1600s to ?
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kyonides



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know you discussed this a long time ago...

Quote:
June 18-24, 1582 AD: Mitsuhide Akechi is temporarily immobilized by a brief illness, and misses his opportunity to kill an unguarded Oda Nobunaga at Honnou-ji.
Aftermath: Oda Nobunaga is left to finish unifying Japan, Sakoku is never implemented so Japan remains open to foreign influences, Japan slowly converts to Catholicism, Japan becomes a colonial empire.

...but I'd like to suggest something. Instead of having a completely unified Japan or Nihon, why wouldn't we have a single Empire with 2 factions, the catholic on some part of the land and the buddhist or shintoist on the other? I think this would be more "realistic" since I don't think most of Japan would convert to catholicism no matter how many catholic priests and frays could get there centuries ago.

Quote:
EDIT: It seems Gavin Menzies was more wrong than I realized - Wikipedia has nothing about a lightning strike on the Forbidden City. We'd have to somehow change the Hongxi Emperor's mind about the voyages, or put somebody else in there who would allow them.

Well, I do remember there was a documentary regarding the Palace being burned in flames due to lightning falling down unexpectedly... OK, it was one of the highest places on Beijing or wherever it's located so it's highly probable it happened at least once. They even had to rebuild it, they went far to the north or the south to get the wooden pillars that travelled a lot of km by just floating on the river for days or even a month, I don't remember clearly.

I don't want to sound foolish but...
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EDIT: Just realized we'd still need a Japanese POD to make them a world power instead of a hikikomori.

...what's hikikomori? I know it's not good, but what is it then?

Quote:
I would LOVE the preservation of the Library, but there's one problem - if there's no Alexandros, theres no Alexandria, and thus no Library. We can have another one pop up.

Then let's move the Library to the Mayan Empire! That would force Europeans and Arabs and Persians go westward quickly to stop them from achieving higher goals like invading Africa or New Zealand or Australia...

Quote:
We need to decide if Greece ever gets out of Persian rule before the Empire falls apart finally - if so, why and how? If not, why and how?

Mmm, maybe due to some illness like malaria or West Nile virus becoming a pandemic in Egypt and spreading to the Persian Empire...

Quote:
AFAIK Alexandros founded Alexandria in its OTL location, IDK if there was a city there before that.

Yes, there was an Egyptian city called something like Pewnet...

I don't think China would really want to conquer the Americas, first they thought other peoples should deserve the right to (pay) tribute to the Emperor. So maybe it'd take longer to make them feel the need to conquer let's say South America. Maybe the Incan and Chibchas killed some Chinese emissaries who looked for the tributes they should pay and that started a minor skirmish that wouldn't let to anything serious until China learned about Incan gold treasures...

Maybe South Korea would be under Japanese control and North Korea under Chinese one...

Why didn't anyone else mention something like China and India fighting against each other for power and lands?
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