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Genders
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What gender are you?
Male
83%
 83%  [ 15 ]
Female
16%
 16%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 18

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Tolkien_Freak



Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 1231
Location: in front of my computer. always.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So in Hellcat, you would be able to change the gender of a name based on whether or not the person was still alive? Can I see an example? How do you mark it if you don't know?
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achemel



Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 555
Location: up for debate

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would love to give you an example but I haven't quite figured out how to romanize the phonology; there's a good bit of screaming, so it's proving to be a bit difficult. Wink I'll be sure to put plenty of examples down when I eventually post it under conlangs. And yes, gender does change depending on being alive or not; or if one was turned to stone, one would then become inanimate (but not dead, as rocks are thought to be somewhat sentient; also, rocks that are thrown by someone or falling in a landslide are considered to be temporarily animate or alive, and their gender changes accordingly).
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Main conlangs:
ddamachel, tadvaradcel, ra cel, lashel, hemnalg, nomah
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eldin raigmore
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Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 1621
Location: SouthEast Michigan

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

achemel wrote:
Hellcat (also hopefully soon to be posted) identifies colors - generally black, reddish, tan, and white (typical coloring of the hellcats themselves) - as well as having distinction between animate/inanimate/dead and a god-gender.
So, is painting or dying something a gender-change operation, then? Or coloring your hair? Or going to the beach and getting a tan?
Are plants (and other non-animal biota) divided between inanimate/living and inanimate/dead?
In order to be "dead", must something have once been animate? Or have had the potential and the expectation to be animate (such as a stillborn child)?
Or, are things like rocks and artifacts that never were alive in the first place and were never expected to be alive, also regarded as "dead"?
Is there any provision for a dead god or an inanimate god? How about a black god, a red god, a tan god, or a white god?
What gender do green things have, whether they're green and just sitting their like my ruined van, or green and growing like grass and trees and bushes?
Do deciduous trees change gender in the fall when their leaves turn color and in the spring when they bud again? Are evergreens famous for not changing gender that way?

What genders (if any) would things of the following colors be?
red
blue
pink
green
brown
yellow
orange
sky-blue
pastel green
gray or grey
pastel yellow
pastel orange
deep, azure blue
purple or violet or magenta
bluish-black or blackish-blue
reddish-black or blackish-red
greenish-black or blackish-green
cyan or cerulean or some such greenish-blue or bluish-green
chartreuse or lime-green or some other greenish-yellow or yellowish-green

When do you decide to assign gender based on animate/inanimate/dead/god and when do you decide to assign gender based on color?
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Last edited by eldin raigmore on Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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achemel



Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 555
Location: up for debate

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, in the case of the hellcats themselves, they take both an animate and a color identification because color helps them distinguish each other from everything else in their world, and they consider themselves to be alive and animate. Getting a tan wouldn't affect color gender, since it's mostly just becoming a darker shade of an already-identified color, but dying your hair (especially a wild color like hot pink) could cause some confusion and use of another gender for you by others. Plants actually are thought to be animate because there is never less than a breeze moving through them, and so they must be alive. Dead plants, because they look so different and no longer move, are considered to be completely separate, as dead things.

Rocks are thought to be inanimate (or, alive but not moving), but dirt is considered to be dead. Metal is dead also. But generally, things that never were alive fall into the dead or inanimate categories depending on whether the hellcats think they are sentient or not.

There are provisions for dead gods and inanimate gods; for example, there is an inanimate god who inhabits a mountain, and a number of gods have died in their near-constant celestial wars. In the case of death, one's gender goes from animate to dead and non-sentient.

Green is associated with plants but it doesn't constitute its own gender. Your van (which sounds awesome) would probably be identified as inanimate, since a hellcat wouldn't know if it was alive or dead but would think of a plant, and likely neuter.

Any shade or hue of red is identified as "red" and anything associated with it; blood is animate when it comes from an animate creature, red paint is dead when it dries. Pink is considered animate because it's so bright it must be alive. Brown, yellow, orange, and any shade or hue of them are classified under "tan," and shades of gray are identified with "black."

When a color doesn't really belong to the groups "black" "tan" "white" or "red" (like green), then animate/inanimate/dead/god are turned to. If something is so strange it doesn't fit anything at all, it automatically gets the god-gender, because it must be that fantastic.
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I have some small knowledge of:
English, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Spanish, French
I would like to learn:
(more) Chinese, Swedish, Italian, German, Indonesian, Tagalog, Gaelic
Main conlangs:
ddamachel, tadvaradcel, ra cel, lashel, hemnalg, nomah
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killerken



Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 134
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am male, and Fiỉðâs does not have any genders.
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eldin raigmore
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Joined: 03 May 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If a language doesn't have any genders, does that mean you couldn't use a mimeograph or xerographic copier etc. in it? Or, how could you reproduce a text in it?
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Hemicomputer



Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 610
Location: Calgary, Alberta

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
If a language doesn't have any genders, does that mean you couldn't use a mimeograph or xerographic copier etc. in it? Or, how could you reproduce a text in it?
Perhaps the language has spores. Or binary fission. Very Happy
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eldin raigmore
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Joined: 03 May 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

achemel wrote:
Well, in the case of the hellcats themselves, they take both an animate and a color identification because color helps them distinguish each other
....
... then animate/inanimate/dead/god are turned to. If something is so strange it doesn't fit anything at all, it automatically gets the god-gender, because it must be that fantastic.
Thanks. That's detailed and interesting.
So a gun-metal blue rocketship would get a god-gender?
Are their secret police the "black and tans"?

Hemicomputer wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
If a language doesn't have any genders, does that mean you couldn't use a mimeograph or xerographic copier etc. in it? Or, how could you reproduce a text in it?
Perhaps the language has spores. Or binary fission. Very Happy
Yes, come to think of it, if certain Chomskyist hypotheses are right, "binary fission" seems like it must happen in every language. But, only mitosis in non-gendered languages, and meiosis only in gendered ones?
Wink (Glad you got it.)
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achemel



Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 555
Location: up for debate

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
So a gun-metal blue rocketship would get a god-gender?


Quite likely, yes, and it might also be considered an animate female if its fuel emissions were red, orange, yellow, or white, and also because of its apparently explosive nature.

eldin raigmore wrote:
Are their secret police the "black and tans"?


Why yes! They're said to spend most of their time looking for shifty characters at the pub, but as yet have been rarely successful due to the distractions of their stakeout. Wink
_________________
I have some small knowledge of:
English, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Spanish, French
I would like to learn:
(more) Chinese, Swedish, Italian, German, Indonesian, Tagalog, Gaelic
Main conlangs:
ddamachel, tadvaradcel, ra cel, lashel, hemnalg, nomah
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killerken



Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 134
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That makes me want to join the secret police!
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Kiri



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 471
Location: Latvia/Italy

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm reading this and laughing! Smile
Vaijerīna has a sort of neuter gender but there is also a masculine gender opportunity, if you want to accent the male-ness of something (that is usually used on living creatures who actually HAVE a gender.) Also this sort of distinguishment only appears in singular form.
Dvarhrih has no genders whatsoever, but there is a possibility to use some sort of an adjective, if there's a special need to it.

Yes, and I'm still a male - and proud of it.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
Yes, and I'm still a male - and proud of it.
Some real-life animals, even including some vertebrates (at least some fish and some amphibians -- don't know about reptiles), are one sex when they first mature sexually, and switch to the other sex if they live long enough.

Does anyone have a con-species like that?

I think this change can go in both directions; in some species young adults are males who when old change to females, in other species young adults are females who when old change to males.

To the best of my knowledge no vertebrate ever changes back.

Young adult lobsters are females; when they grow really big they switch to male.

Parasites can feminize a male host; they're likelier to just neuter the host no matter what its original sex was.

There are some marine worms in which the smaller ones are male and the larger ones are female, and in which a worm can be changed back to male from female (but not through its own choice, as you'll see). If two females are sort-of confined together in mostly-sufficient-but-almost-insufficent space, for a long enough time, they'll fight. The winner will bite the loser in two. The result will be at least one, maybe two males, to keep the winner (still a female) company.

Does anyone have a conspecies whose adult members' sex is determined by size? How about one whose members' sex is determined also by the relative size of the biggest neighbor of the same species? Like the biggest one around will be male and the others female, or vice-versa.

Does anyone have an intelligent conspecies whose members are not hermaphroditic, but whose sex can change and then can change back, naturally (not by surgery)? Male-to-female-to-male and/or female-to-male-to-female? Do both "males are dominant" and "females are dominant" versions of such conspecies occur?

There are real-life mammals -- naked mole rats -- in which the biggest member of a community is the only fertile female, and all other females are kept sterile by her presence and proximity.

Among many mammals and birds there is a hierarchy in each sex; only the dominant male can mate and only the dominant female can mate. But the others aren't sterile, they're just not allowed to mate.

Among birds sometimes there's a process by which a female is either kept from mating or kept infertile as long as her father is still around. Or, it might be instead, as long as her mother is still around. Or it might be the males who either can't mate or are infertile as long as their mothers are around; or maybe it's as long as their fathers are around.

So it would make sense if there were an intelligent conspecies in which a member's sex wasn't determined until one of its parents either dies or passes the "climacteric" (e.g. menopause); at which point it would develop into the sex of the deceased parent (or would it develop into the opposite sex?). And maybe a younger adult's sex would change if it were orphaned and had an older sibling. Or something. I haven't worked it out.

--------------------------------------

Does anyone have a conspecies with tri-sexual reproduction? Does every member have three parents each of whom makes a significant genetic contribution?
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Hemicomputer



Joined: 04 Feb 2008
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Location: Calgary, Alberta

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
Does anyone have a conspecies with tri-sexual reproduction? Does every member have three parents each of whom makes a significant genetic contribution?
I used to have the Holxws as tri-sexual (with all three genders marked in language as well), but I abandoned this because it got confusing. Two of the genders made genetic contributions (one produced sperm, one produced eggs), while the third simply birthed the children.
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achemel



Joined: 29 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Hemicomputer: THAT is a very interesting idea! Methinks I like it much.

I have a race of shapeshifting creatures which actually grow and separate from their parent's back and thus are born to be just like the parent, but upon maturing a bit they get to choose how they want to appear and what gender to maintain. Also they can change shape, which I often wish I could do. (^_^) And take pictures with my eyes... that would be awesome.
_________________
I have some small knowledge of:
English, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Spanish, French
I would like to learn:
(more) Chinese, Swedish, Italian, German, Indonesian, Tagalog, Gaelic
Main conlangs:
ddamachel, tadvaradcel, ra cel, lashel, hemnalg, nomah
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eldin raigmore
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Joined: 03 May 2007
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Location: SouthEast Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

achemel wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
] Are their secret police the "black and tans"?
Why yes! They're said to spend most of their time looking for shifty characters at the pub, but as yet have been rarely successful due to the distractions of their stakeout. Wink

Do you know about Black&Tan coonhounds?
Do you know about Guinness half-and-half porter-stout with mild lager or mild ale?
Do you know about
Black and Tan wrote:
a British auxiliary force employed in Ireland against the republicans (1920–21). When Irish nationalist agitation intensified after World War I, many Irish police resigned and were replaced by these temporary English recruits, who dressed in a mixed “black and tan” outfit because of a shortage of uniforms. In their efforts to thwart the terrorism of the Irish Republican Army, the Black and Tans themselves engaged in brutal reprisals.

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achemel



Joined: 29 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Do you know about Black&Tan coonhounds?


Yes.

Quote:
Do you know about Guinness half-and-half porter-stout with mild lager or mild ale?


Yes.

Quote:
Do you know about
Black and Tan wrote:
a British auxiliary force employed in Ireland against the republicans (1920–21). When Irish nationalist agitation intensified after World War I, many Irish police resigned and were replaced by these temporary English recruits, who dressed in a mixed “black and tan” outfit because of a shortage of uniforms. In their efforts to thwart the terrorism of the Irish Republican Army, the Black and Tans themselves engaged in brutal reprisals.



No - that's quite interesting! And actually sounds a bit like what the hellcats are going through. Except for the actually having a police force in first place part; there isn't one.
_________________
I have some small knowledge of:
English, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Spanish, French
I would like to learn:
(more) Chinese, Swedish, Italian, German, Indonesian, Tagalog, Gaelic
Main conlangs:
ddamachel, tadvaradcel, ra cel, lashel, hemnalg, nomah
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twix93



Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 57
Location: England

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm male and Isimal has no genders, I avoid it when it comes to conlangs.
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kyonides



Joined: 28 Aug 2008
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kexyana has the 3 typical genders, male, female and neutral / epicene. My next conlang would have 3, too, for animate, inanimate and pseudoanimate (for machinery + PC's).
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Hemicomputer



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Location: Calgary, Alberta

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UPDATE ON GENDER

It's not marked in the language, but the Drumu have (depending how you look at it) about four genders. They still have two main sexes (they are humans), but the gender roles in their society are assigned at a certain age without regard for the child's sex. So, you could analyse this as there being two non-sex-based genders, or four separate genders created by overlappings of role with sex. That last would be sort of like what the Bugis people have, but without the option of being a bissu. Either analysis works; it depends on the context and the time period and whether you look at a large city or a more rural area. And of course I haven't gotten all the bugs worked out yet.
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Kiri



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
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Location: Latvia/Italy

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I realise this is some serious necromancing but oh well... Very Happy

I'm thinking about having an unusual grammatical gender system in a conlang. And I need your oppinion on it.

How about having three distinctions that combine. Everything is either:
Hot or Cold;
Sharp or Blunt;
Light or Dark;
therefore a gender marking would be HSL (e.g. fire), or CSL (e.g. a cold knife), etc.

What do you think?
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