Vreleks Forum Index Vreleks
The Alurhsa Word for Constructed: Creativity in both scripts and languages
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

How many vowels/consonants in a row?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Vreleks Forum Index -> Conlangs
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Aert



Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:28 pm    Post subject: How many vowels/consonants in a row? Reply with quote

Hey,

How mnay vowel or consonant (sounds) can your conlang have in a row (including semivowels I guess Twisted Evil )?

I was working on the articles and found I could do 4 vowels:

<b>Ś</b> (girls in general) [Ś=girl + =plural + =generalization]
The pronunciation is a bit difficult here, I don't know if the IPA is right: /ʃieji(ə)/ (the (j) is for palatalization (supposed to be superscript); the second /i/ is a short /i/, halfway between /i/ and /I/; and the ə can be pronounced or not).
<b>Ś</b> (boys in general) /ʃʌIeji(ə)/ (same notes).

I might be able to find some longer ones, but my computer died on me so I'm working from memory right now Crying or Very sad

Look forward to seeing yours!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tolkien_Freak



Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 1231
Location: in front of my computer. always.

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Emitare: 1 consonant (CV syllables), infinite number of vowels. Per syllable, a max of 3 (semivowel+diphthong).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Aert



Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found some longer ones:

Śmin / Śmin [little girls/boys in general]
Vrgaomin / Vrgaominẃrb [deaths in general - diminutive / augmentative]
If'geẃmin [it is the little eternities (...)]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eldin raigmore
Admin


Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 1621
Location: SouthEast Michigan

PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: How many vowels/consonants in a row? Reply with quote

Aert wrote:
How many vowel or consonant (sounds) can your conlang have in a row (including semivowels I guess Twisted Evil )?

Do you mean "in a phrase" or "in a word" or "in a syllable"?

If you meant "in a phrase":

If some of your words end in a vowel or a vowel-cluster and some begin in a vowel or a vowel-cluster and some consist entirely of a vowel or a vowel-cluster, you might be able to get very long strings of vowels in a phrase.
Similarly, if some of your words end in a consonant or a consonant-cluster and some begin in a consonant or a consonant-cluster (and/or some consist entirely of a consonant or a consonant-cluster, which does happen but is pretty rare), you might be able to get very long strings of consonants in a phrase.

If you meant "in a word":

Suppose it is the case in your conlang, as it is in most (but not all) natlangs, that every word is a string of syllables and every sound in every word is in a syllable and every word-boundary is also a syllable-boundary.
Then, if some of your syllables end in a vowel or a vowel-cluster and some begin in a vowel or a vowel-cluster and some consist entirely of a vowel or a vowel-cluster, you might be able to get very long strings of vowels in a word.
And, if some of your syllables end in a consonant or a consonant-cluster and some begin in a consonant or a consonant-cluster (and/or some consist entirely of a consonant or a consonant-cluster, which does happen -- it's not even that rare), you might be able to get very long strings of consonants in a word.
If codas are optional and onsets are also optional, but there aren't any syllables consisting entirely of a vowel or vowel-cluster, the maximum length vowel-cluster in a word would be twice the maximum length of a syllable-nucleus.
If there are no syllables consisting entirely of consonants, the maximum length consonant-cluster in a word would be the sum of the maximum-length coda plus the maximum-length onset.
If you can't have two syllables in a row with consonants for nuclei (can't have two vowel-less syllables in a row), and the longest allowed nuclear-consonantal syllable is two consonants (a one-consonant onset plus a nuclear consonant, or a nuclear consonant plus a one-consonant coda), then the longest consonant-cluster allowable in a word would be:
longest coda + two + longest onset.

Suppose it is the case in your conlang, as it is in most (but not all) natlangs, that every word is a string of morphemes and every morpheme is a string of phonemes and every sound in every word is in a morpheme and every word-boundary is also a morpheme-boundary and every morpheme-boundary is also a phoneme-boundary.
Then, if some of your morphemes end in a vowel or a vowel-cluster and some begin in a vowel or a vowel-cluster and some consist entirely of a vowel or a vowel-cluster, you might be able to get very long strings of vowels in a word.
And, if some of your morphemes end in a consonant or a consonant-cluster and some begin in a consonant or a consonant-cluster and/or some consist entirely of a consonant or a consonant-cluster, you might be able to get very long strings of consonants in a word.

If you meant "in a syllable":

Adpihi's most-complicated syllables fit the formula (C)(C)V(V)(C)(C).
So the longest consonant-clusters allowed in a syllable are two; whether they are in the onset or in the coda.
And the longest vowel-clusters allowed in a syllable are also two.

Since Adpihi has no vowel-less syllables, the longest consonant-clusters allowed in a word are four, a two-consonant coda followed by a two-consonant onset. (A word-initial consonant-cluster can't be longer than two, nor can a word-final consonant-cluster.)
However I have not actually yet made any words containing any consonant-clusters longer than two consonants.
I may decide not to. Or I may decide to limit consonant-clusters in a word to three.

Since Adpihi's onsets are optional and its codas are also optional, it can have some V or VV syllables. So, theoretically, if I had a (C)(C)VV syllable followed by a VV syllable followed by a VV(C)(C) syllable, I might have six vowels in a row; if I had two VV syllables between the (C)(C)VV and the VV(C)(C), I might have eight vowels in a row; and so on.
However I don't yet have any words with more than two vowels in a row, and don't plan to have any with more than three vowels in a row.
I may decide on a limit of three, or on a limit of four.

Most of Adpihi's syllables are of the forms CV or VC. Most of the rest are of the form V. Next are the forms CVC and CCV; next are the form CCVC. Nearly all are of one of the forms (C)(C)V(C), (C)V(C)(C), or (C)V(V)(C).
So three-consonant clusters in a word should be rarish, and four-consonant clusters in a word should be quite rare.
_________________
"We're the healthiest horse in the glue factory" - Erskine Bowles, Co-Chairman of the deficit reduction commission
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Aert



Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, let's try for in a phrase, that way words beginning/ending with a vowel could be included and continued.

It wouldn't be just in a syllable though, or there couldn't be very many vowel-sounds in a row. The challenge here is how many there are in a row (hopefully still sounding all right).

Yes, consonants are the same way; I remember I had a very interesting Polish tongue twister that had some crazy clusters. Georgian is also famous for theirs, although I haven't looked at them enough to determine where the syllable breaks are.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eldin raigmore
Admin


Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 1621
Location: SouthEast Michigan

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aert wrote:
Sure, let's try for in a phrase, that way words beginning/ending with a vowel could be included and continued.
It wouldn't be just in a syllable though, or there couldn't be very many vowel-sounds in a row. The challenge here is how many there are in a row (hopefully still sounding all right).
A Scottish dialect of English is reported to have a conversation consisting of all vowels; it's meaning is, IIRC:
V: Wool?
R: Aye, wool.
V: All wool?
R: Aye, all wool.
V: All one wool?
R: Aye, all one wool.

Presumably the final response above is four vowels, counting polyphthongs as vowels.

I understand no natlang has any polyphthongs longer than tetraphthongs; though there are natlangs with tetraphthongs, and of course there are some with triphthongs.

But I've seen some European languages' phrases with eight or so vowels in a row. Of course those were not all contained in one syllable, nor all in one morpheme, nor even all in one word.

Aert wrote:
Yes, consonants are the same way; I remember I had a very interesting Polish tongue twister that had some crazy clusters. Georgian is also famous for theirs, although I haven't looked at them enough to determine where the syllable breaks are.
Some Salish languages (spoken in and near British Columbia) are also famous for consonant clusters. "He had had a bunchberry plant" is supposed to be the gloss for a famous one. As for syllable-boundaries, these languages are among the ones that most call into question whether the idea of "syllables" applies to every language. Apparently the best one can do is say that some of the phonemes in some of the words are in syllables.
There are other languages whose words consist mostly of syllables, but have some words that are analyzed as having some extra-syllabic consonants (consonants that are part of the word but not part of any syllable of the word).
And locating a syllable boundary may be a "fuzzy" task even in a well-behaved language. You might wind up being sure there's a syllable boundary either before or after a certain consonant, but not being able to be sure whether it's before or after.
(Also, btw, there are some languages where it's a frequent occurence for a syllable to straddle a word-boundary. That is, a syllable may consist of the last few sounds of one word followed by the first few sounds of the next word. Or maybe, even, a word will be the middle part of a syllable.)

As for my conlangs; I'm pretty sure that there won't be any consonant-clusters longer than four consonants, even if a word-boundary occurs within the cluster.
I haven't decided any such thing about vowel-clusters, though. I don't imagine I'll allow vowel-clusters longer than four vowels in a word, but that doesn't limit the length of a vowel-cluster in a phrase if the cluster can straddle one or more word-boundary/ies.

Nearly all the most common few thousand words in Adpihi will be three phonemes long or shorter, consisting of one to two consonants and one to two vowels; I could get seven-and-a-half thousand words that way. Naturally in such words consonant clusters won't be longer than two consonants and vowel-clusters won't be longer than two vowels. Two-and-a-half thousand wouldn't have clusters at all.

Going on to four-phoneme words, I can get more words than are in many English dictionaries consisting of four sounds of which one to three are consonants and one to three are vowels. (So of course no clusters longer than three.) That would include 145,000 without any consonant clusters longer than two consonants, and without any vowel clusters longer than two vowels.

Now consider five-phoneme words without clusters longer than two. They'd have one of the shapes
CCVCC

CCVVC
CVVCC

CCVCV
CVCCV
VCCVC
VCVCC

CVCVC

VCCVV
VVCCV

CVCVV
CVVCV
VCVVC
VVCVC

VCVCV

VVCVV
and there could be up to 800,000 + 7*200,000 + 7*50,000 + 2,500 =
2,552,500 of them.

If I don't allow vowel-clusters at all, and allow at most one consonant-cluster which can't be longer than two consonants, I can get
1,050,000 words; more than there are in English.

So: Almost all of Adpihi's words -- leaving aside compound words, words with other words enclitic or proclitic on them, and verbs with nouns or pronouns incorporated in them -- will be five phonemes long or shorter (one to four consonants and one to four vowels) and will have no vowel-clusters longer than two vowels nor any consonant-clusters longer than two consonants.

Nearly all but the rarest such words will be four phonemes long or shorter (one to three consonants and one to three vowels) with no clusters longer than two. Most discourses could be carried on using only these words.

Edited to correct problem caused by timing-out.
_________________
"We're the healthiest horse in the glue factory" - Erskine Bowles, Co-Chairman of the deficit reduction commission


Last edited by eldin raigmore on Fri May 29, 2009 11:00 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hemicomputer



Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 610
Location: Calgary, Alberta

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
Some Salish languages (spoken in and near British Columbia) are also famous for consonant clusters. "He had had a bunchberry plant" is supposed to be the gloss for a famous one.

The complete gloss is "then he had in his posession a bunchberry plant" and the word is pronounced:
[xɬpʼχʷɬtʰɬpʰɬːskʷʰt͡sʼ].
Shocked
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
achemel



Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 556
Location: up for debate

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocked
That is AMAZING. I can pronounce the first two sounds but then I fail... It's like... squishy whispering!
_________________
I have some small knowledge of:
English, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Spanish, French
I would like to learn:
Italian, Norwegian, Gaelic
Main conlangs:
ddamachel, tadvaradcel, ra cel, lashel, hemnalg, nomah
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tolkien_Freak



Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 1231
Location: in front of my computer. always.

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed it is amazing. I've heard someone describe it as 'that's not a word, that's a cough'.

10 syllables without a single sonorant.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
achemel



Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 556
Location: up for debate

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oou, a cough... that's a good description too. Smile
_________________
I have some small knowledge of:
English, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Spanish, French
I would like to learn:
Italian, Norwegian, Gaelic
Main conlangs:
ddamachel, tadvaradcel, ra cel, lashel, hemnalg, nomah
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eldin raigmore
Admin


Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 1621
Location: SouthEast Michigan

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edited my last previous post to correct the problem caused by timing out.
_________________
"We're the healthiest horse in the glue factory" - Erskine Bowles, Co-Chairman of the deficit reduction commission
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Baldash



Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 86
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:25 pm    Post subject: Re: How many vowels/consonants in a row? Reply with quote

My conlang Tlawyn, which isn't mature for presentation yet, has CV(N) word non-initially, where V is any monophthong or diphthong, and N is a mostly homorganic nasal. V may be a rising diphthong only when C is any of /p b t d k g/, and V may be a falling diphthong only when the syllable is open. Word initial syllables has almost the same CV(N), except that then N may also be the liquid /l/.

That means that there will be maximally two consecutive consonants if not counting semi-vowels, three if counting semi-vowels. There will be maximally five consecutive vowels, if semi-vowels are counted (/kwa.waj/). If semi-vowels are not counted as vowels and if not both parts of diphthongs are counted individually, then every vowel is separated from any other by at least one consonant.

eldin raigmore wrote:
Adpihi's most-complicated syllables fit the formula (C)(C)V(V)(C)(C).

Are there any restrictions about which consonant pairs may be an onset or a coda?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eldin raigmore
Admin


Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 1621
Location: SouthEast Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:02 pm    Post subject: Re: How many vowels/consonants in a row? Reply with quote

Baldash wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
Adpihi's most-complicated syllables fit the formula (C)(C)V(V)(C)(C).
Are there any restrictions about which consonant pairs may be an onset or a coda?
Yes. There's a sonority hierarchy. Within any cluster of a syllable the consonant closer to the nucleus must be more sonorous than the consonant further from the nucleus. If a syllable has both an onset and a coda, then if two consonants in the same syllable are equidistant from its nucleus, the one after the nucleus (i.e. in the coda) has to be at least as sonorous as the one before the nucleus (i.e. in the onset).
So for a C1C2V syllable, C2 has to be more sonorous than C1; for a VC1C2 syllable, C1 must be more sonorous than C2; and for a C1VC2 syllable, C2 has to be at least as sonorous as C1

The sonority hierarchy isn't too finely graded. There are only five sonorities as far as the language "knows"; viz. stops, fricatives, nasals, liquids, and semivowels.
Stops are less sonorous than fricatives;
Fricatives are less sonorous than nasals;
Nasals are less sonorous than liquids;
Liquids are less sonorous than semivowels.

So, letting
T stand for any stop,
F stand for any fricative,
N stand for any nasal,
L stand for any liquid, and
W stand for any semivowel,
the patterns of syllables with both an onset-cluster and a coda-cluster would be:
TFV(V)FT
TFV(V)NT
TFV(V)NF
TFV(V)LT
TFV(V)LF
TFV(V)LN
TFV(V)WT
TFV(V)WF
TFV(V)WN
TFV(V)WL
TNV(V)NT
TNV(V)NF
TNV(V)LT
TNV(V)LF
TNV(V)LN
TNV(V)WT
TNV(V)WF
TNV(V)WN
TNV(V)WL
TLV(V)LT
TLV(V)LF
TLV(V)LN
TLV(V)WT
TLV(V)WF
TLV(V)WN
TLV(V)WL
TWV(V)WT
TWV(V)WF
TWV(V)WN
TWV(V)WL
FNV(V)NF
FNV(V)LF
FNV(V)LN
FNV(V)WF
FNV(V)WN
FNV(V)WL
FLV(V)LF
FLV(V)LN
FLV(V)WF
FLV(V)WN
FLV(V)WL
FWV(V)WF
FWV(V)WN
FWV(V)WL
NLV(V)LN
NLV(V)WN
NLV(V)WL
NWV(V)WN
NWV(V)WL
LWV(V)WL
There are also rules regarding voiced and unvoiced sounds. Within any onset cluster or any coda cluster, you can't have an unvoiced consonant closer to the nucleus than a voiced consonant in the same syllable on the same side of the nucleus.
So, if H represents Mute and B represents Voiced, the allowable sequences for syllables with an onset-cluster and a coda-cluster are
HHV(V)HH
HHV(V)BH
HHV(V)BB
HBV(V)HH
HBV(V)BH
HBV(V)BB
BBV(V)HH
BBV(V)BH
BBV(V)BB
If only the onset is a cluster, or only the coda is a cluster, its simpler and less restricted; if neither is a cluster, or there's only an onset (no coda), or there's only a coda (no onset), it's simpler yet.
And if there's an onset and no coda, and the onset isn't a cluster; or there's a coda and no onset, and the coda isn't a cluster; then there aren't any restrictions. Every consonant that appears in the language at all, may appear as the only consonant of a one-consonant onset, and also may appear as the only consonant of a one-consonant coda.

The two kinds of restrictions on clusters -- sonority-hierarchy and voicing -- don't interact as complexly as you might think, since all semivowels, liquids, and nasals are voiced, and all voiceless consonants are either stops or fricatives.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: I forgot to say that the two consonants in a cluster can't be homorganic (same PoA)!
_________________
"We're the healthiest horse in the glue factory" - Erskine Bowles, Co-Chairman of the deficit reduction commission
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dusepo



Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 129

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Retafon never has more than one consonant or vowel in a row. One of the 'rules' of the language is that it's not allowed!
_________________
My Website
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wombat



Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

None.
A word is made of syllables. Each syllable is one consonant followed by one vowel and is represented by one character.
Such as:
Mahyse, which if I remember correctly is egg.
Y is a vowel and nothing else.
_________________
Finkolma us fo al fuhla thamaf.
Hover-craft of me is eels-filled.
My hovercraft is full of eels.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
eldin raigmore
Admin


Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 1621
Location: SouthEast Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dusepo wrote:
Retafon never has more than one consonant or vowel in a row. One of the 'rules' of the language is that it's not allowed!
Wombat wrote:
None.
A word is made of syllables. Each syllable is one consonant followed by one vowel and is represented by one character.
Such as:
Mahyse, which if I remember correctly is egg.
Y is a vowel and nothing else.
Simple syllable-structures make for languages that would be easy to write with a syllabary or alpha-syllabary or abugida.
All CV or all (C)V are probably easiest.
But many languages with C(C)V or (C(C))V,
and many languages with CV(C) or (C)V(C),
if they are very strict about the second consonant (for instance, the second consonant, if there is one, must be a glide/semivowel or a liquid or a nasal), do well with syllabaries, alpha-syllabaries, or abugidas. Korean, for instance, is such a language (I think); so, I think, is Japanese; and so, I think, is Tamil.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why do languages need words longer than three syllables?
Why do languages need words longer than five phoneme-segments?

An average phoneme-inventory has twenty consonants and five vowels.
So there could be a million words of the form:
(C)V((C)V((C)V))
or four million of the form
(C)V(C)((C)V(C))
or four million of the form
(C(C))V(V)(C(C)).
That is, the more complicated the syllables can be, the fewer syllables-per-word you need to get a million words.

In fact, with words that:
* are one to three syllables long
* are one to five phoneme-segments long
* contain one to three vowels
* contain zero to three consonants
* contain no vowel-clusters
* contain at most one consonant-cluster
* contain no clusters longer than two consonants

you could get over a million words with an inventory of twenty consonant phonemes and five vowel phonemes. The longest ones would be one of the following patterns:
CVCVC
VCVCC
CVCCV
VCCVC
CCVCV
VCVCV
and of course there could be shorter ones; CCVC, CVCC, CVCV, VCCV, VCVC, CCV, CVC, VCC, VCV, CV, VC, V.

-------------------------------------------------

Of course, with fewer phonemes, you have fewer syllables, just as with simpler syllables, you have fewer syllables, ceteris parabus (did I spell that right?).

Every natlang has at least three vowels and at least six consonants. If it also had a CV syllable structure that would mean only eighteen different syllables.
WALS.info lists eleven languages with few consonants and few vowels,
(Abkhaz, Awa Pit, Bandjalang (Yugumbir), Cree (Plains), Dyirbal, Gadsup, Koasati, Kuku-Yalanji, Maranao, Yidiny, Yimas);
it lists twenty languages with few consonants and CV or (C)V syllable-structure,
(Andoke, Apurin, Barasano (Northern), Bororo, Cubeo, Ekari, Fasu, Hawaiian, Kiwai, Klao, Koiari, Maori, Maybrat, Mor, Rapanui, Roro, Rotokas, Toaripi, Warao, Yareba);
and it lists four languages with few vowels and CV or (C)V syllable-structure,
(Araona, Paumar, Pirah, Tacana).

If words can be up to five syllables long, you can get more than a million words with six consonants and three vowels and only CV syllables. None of the languages in WALS.info's database do that, though; or if they do, the collectors of that data didn't notice and record that fact.
_________________
"We're the healthiest horse in the glue factory" - Erskine Bowles, Co-Chairman of the deficit reduction commission
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Aert



Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The shorter your average word length, the closer pronounced each of them are to each other. Therefore, people would have to prounounce the words much clearer, and listen better. Also, this doesn't take into account any grammatical inflections etc (unless the language is completely isolating).

It would work well enough in a solely written language, but I doubt it for a spoken one (and even more so in song, poetry, etc!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wombat



Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So far, it works in spoken language nicely. The thing is, the consonants and vowels are all completely distinct. You do not have two syllables that really sound alike unless they mean similar things.

On the spoken bits, it is relatively quick to speak per syllable, it's just that the words are averaging of 5 syllables. But that's just fine. If it is awkward, it will start to evolve, to adapt, to grow more patterns.
_________________
Finkolma us fo al fuhla thamaf.
Hover-craft of me is eels-filled.
My hovercraft is full of eels.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
eldin raigmore
Admin


Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 1621
Location: SouthEast Michigan

PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of the eleven languages WALS.info says have small vowel inventories and small consonant inventories, eight have "moderately complex" syllable structure, two (Abkhaz and Awa Pit) have "complex" syllable structure, and one (Maranao) they didn't record the syllable-structure for.

They have two to four vowels, six to fourteen consonants,
and (C)(C)V(C) syllables in which the second C of the onset can only be
a liquid ( [ l ] or [ r ]) or a glide ([ w ] or [ j ]).

Imagining for the moment four vowels and fourteen consonants, there might be 15 codas (counting "no coda"), and four nuclei, so 60 rimes; and 1 + 14 + 14*4 = 71 onsets (counting "no onset"). So there'd be 4260 possible syllables, and over 16 million possible two-syllable words.

Now, suppose onsets are mandatory, and there's only one possible second consonant in a two-consonant onset (for instance, maybe [ w ]). And suppose there're only two vowels and only six consonants.

Then there'd be seven codas and two nuclei, for 14 rimes; and 14*2 = 28 onsets, for 392 syllables.

So, there'd be over 27 million three-syllable words.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Of the languages listed with small vowel inventories and simple syllables, one (Araona) has a large consonant inventory, one (Paumari) has an average consonant inventory, and two have a "moderately small" consonant inventory.

"Moderately small consonant inventory" means 15 to 18 consonants.

With 18 consonants and 4 vowels and (C)V syllables, there'd be 19*4 = 76 possible syllables. There'd be more than 33 million four-syllable words.

With 15 consonants and 2 vowels and CV syllables, there'd be 15*2 = 30 possible syllables. There'd be more than 24 million five-syllable words.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Of the 20 languages listed with small consonant inventories and simple syllable structure, three (Andoke, Bororo, and Klao) have large vowel inventories and eighteen have average vowel inventories.

That means; 6-14 consonants, 5-6 vowels, and CV or (C)V syllables.

Suppose 14 consonants, 6 vowels, and (C)V syllables; that's 15*6 = 90 syllables. There'd be over 65 million four-syllable words.

Suppose 6 consonants, 5 vowels, and CV syllables; there'd be 30 syllables. As before, there'd be more than 24 million five-syllable words.
_________________
"We're the healthiest horse in the glue factory" - Erskine Bowles, Co-Chairman of the deficit reduction commission
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
achemel



Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 556
Location: up for debate

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ra cel generally allows a maximum of two units in a consonant cluster at onset, and a maximum of three elsewhere. With /h l ẅ/ counting as semivowels or semiconsonants, this could be extended almost indefinitely. The same goes for vowels: certain types of diphthongs are permitted, and depending on the end of one and the beginning of another they could be linked indefinitely, especially by using /h l ẅ/ as semivowels. The longest consonant cluster I've found is /srnv/ "part," which can be extended one unit more through pluralizing it to /srnvn/, at which point it becomes two syllables. Using /ẅ/ as a semiconsonant you can have a cluster of four in "to snow," /fẅnẅyvm/. For vowels, without using diphthongs but including /l/ as a semivowel, you can have a cluster of five: /olnle/ "to take" (verbal stem). By including /h l ẅ/ as either semivowels or semiconsonants you can make decently long phrases comprised only of vowels or only of consonants, though that would be allowing for separation between words.
_________________
I have some small knowledge of:
English, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Spanish, French
I would like to learn:
Italian, Norwegian, Gaelic
Main conlangs:
ddamachel, tadvaradcel, ra cel, lashel, hemnalg, nomah
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Vreleks Forum Index -> Conlangs
All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Theme ACID 2003 par HEDONISM Web Hosting Directory


Start Your Own Video Sharing Site

Free Web Hosting | Free Forum Hosting | FlashWebHost.com | Image Hosting | Photo Gallery | FreeMarriage.com

Powered by PhpBBweb.com, setup your forum now!
For Support, visit Forums.BizHat.com