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Al convinced Bob to force Charlie to give Dasher to ...
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could probably do it, but you'd have to split it into a bunch of smaller sentences.

(You don't have conjunctions?)
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
I think it's impossible to translate this sentence in TŠL, for it to still make any sense. Can that happen?
At least, I can't see, how I can do it with the system, because currently there can only be one verb in a sentence, with the other one (if there is one), turning into a gerund. And then the datives and beneficials... it's way too complicated. :D

Well, of course, in English, you can't do it with just one verb.
The idea was that maybe in your conlang you could.
Al-Initial.Instigator Bob-Middle.Agent Charlie-Final.Performer give-agree.with.Al.instigator-agree.with.Charlie.performer-agree.with.Dasher.theme-agree.with.Elizabeth.recipient Dasher-Theme Elizabeth-Recipient Francis-Beneficiary.
or
Al-Initial.Instigator Bob-Middle.Agent Charlie-Final.Performer give-agree.with.Al.agent-agree.with.Dasher.theme-agree.with.Elizabeth.recipient-agree.with.Francis.beneficiary Dasher-Theme Elizabeth-Recipient Francis-Beneficiary.
or something.

Try five- and four- and three-participant simplifications first.

Al convinced Bob to force Charlie to give Dasher to Elizabeth.
Al convinced Charlie to give Dasher to Elizabeth for Francis.
Bob forced Charlie to give Dasher to Elizabeth for Francis.

If you can't handle all of those with one verb, try:
Al convinced Charlie to give Dasher to Elizabeth.
Bob forced Charlie to give Dasher to Elizabeth.
Charlie gave Dasher to Elizabeth for Francis.

And if you can't handle all of those with one verb, try:
Charlie gave Dasher to Elizabeth.

Or, what about,
Al convinced Bob to force Charlie to ride Dasher for Francis.

Or, if you can't handle that all in one verb, how about these?
Al convinced Bob to force Charlie to ride Dasher.
Al convinced Charlie to ride Dasher for Francis.
Bob forced Charlie to ride Dasher for Francis.

Or if you can't handle all of those with one verb each, how about:
Al convinced Charlie to ride Dasher.
Bob forced Charlie to ride Dasher.
Charlie rode Dasher for Francis.

--------------------------------------

As I said, I doubted anyone could get the entire six-participant clause to have just one verb; but the three-participant clauses should be possible in most languages, and the four-participant clauses in some.
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achemel



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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This kind of sentence would be possible with one verb in hellcat, but I haven't done much with hellcat since I've been working on other languages and I don't think I even have a word for "give" yet. I'll give it a shot later.
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al convinced Charlie to ride Dasher for Francis.
Al.ERG PST Charlie.ABS Dasher.GEN ride-GER.GEN CNJ convince-BEN Francis.

CNJ - in this case it is something similiar to English "towards" or maybe Japanese "に" in use.
I can do up to this much in TŠL, but this is with two verbs - one in a normal form and one as a gerund. The point is, if I have to stick another (couple of) verb(s) in there, it basically means another gerund, and I'm not sure how to
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
Al convinced Charlie to ride Dasher for Francis.
Al.ERG PST Charlie.ABS Dasher.GEN ride-GER.GEN CNJ convince-BEN Francis.

CNJ - in this case it is something similiar to English "towards" or maybe Japanese "に" in use.
I can do up to this much in TŠL, but this is with two verbs - one in a normal form and one as a gerund. The point is, if I have to stick another (couple of) verb(s) in there, it basically means another gerund, and I'm not sure how to

Well, the English version has two infinitives in it;
"Al convinced Bob to force Charlie to give Dasher to Elizabeth for Francis".
An infinitive is one kind of verbal noun (which can take an object); a gerund is another kind of verbal noun (its object would probably have to be in the genitive).
So if you can do the four-participant clauses with just one verb, you might be able to do the six-participant clause with just one verb and one gerund (or infinitive or participle or supine or whatever your language has). And that would need fewer verbforms than the English version, which needs a finite verb and two infinitives.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aalmok:

Al convinced Bob to force Charlie to give Dasher to Elizabeth for Francis.
.<el>pakwenoi<babā>(ško payon<cařliyā>(ško diňkson<dešřā><īlīzībīťze>ša<fřensīsˀe*>)).
Al to.convince-3.SG.NPST Bob for.CONJ to.force-INF Charlie for.CONJ to.give-INF Dasher-N.SG.ACC Elizabeth-N.SG.DAT for.PREP Francis-N.SG.DAT

That's about as compact as you can make this in Aalmok without resorting to an unorthodox colon-using format.

Names could be written in other ways depending on how they are assumed to be pronounced, the ones I gave were based on how I pronounce them generally.

*This is an ending that is part of a set of words and grammatical structures that I refer to as “the standard deviations”.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
I think it's impossible to translate this sentence in TŠL, for it to still make any sense. Can that happen?
At least, I can't see, how I can do it with the system, because currently there can only be one verb in a sentence, with the other one (if there is one), turning into a gerund. And then the datives and beneficials... it's way too complicated. Very Happy


Well, depending on what you mean when you say "can that happen?", the answer could be yes or no.

If TŠL is supposed to be naturalistic or realistic, or just a complete language, there has to be some way to say that in TŠL; anything that can be said in any natlang can also be said in any other natlang.

OTOH it may be impossible to put it all into one sentence.

I originally conceived this TC to check to see if anyone could say it in one clause, with just one verb. There are plenty of natlangs where that's impossible; English is one of them. (The English version of the sentence has three clauses, one inside another.)

As I understand it, polysynthetic languages don't allow subordinate clauses to stack as deep as English does; the last verse of "The House that Jack Built" just can't be a single sentence in one of them. I don't know that that's true of all of them, but I've been told it's true of some of them.

English's verbs seem max out at valency three, or at least so it seems (google for tritransitive verbs and you'll see some discussion about that); that is, no verb in English can have more than three core arguments. (Possibly a verb could have more than three arguments; but some of them would have to be oblique arguments.)

In some natural languages, there are double causatives; in some, there are benefactive applicatives. In English, causatives are expressed by means of subordinate clauses. In English, benefactives are expressed by means of a prepositional phrase (such as a "for" phrase) which modifies a verb or a verb-phrase or a clause or a sentence.

I took a verb that was originally ditransitive in English (some natlangs don't have ditransitive verbs), then doubly-causativized it and benefactive-applicativized it. (You can't tell from the English whether the benefactive-applicativization occurs before either causativization, or after both causativizations, or between the causativizations. The same is probably true in natlangs where this can all be done with one verb.)

TŠL might not have polypersonal agreement; and, it might not allow more than two core arguments; or not allow more than three. As far as anyone knows, no natlang has more than four grammatical relations (subject + objects), or at least the only people who claim different are trying to prove that the ideas of "valency" and of "grammatical relation" are useless and should be abandoned.

If you causativize or applicativize a verb that already has valency 3, you raise the valency to 4 if your language allows that. If you doubly-causativize or both causativize and applicativize a verb that already has valency 3, you raise the valency to 5 if your language allows that; natlangs don't, apparently. If you both doubly-causativize and applicativize a ditransitive verb, the resulting verb has valency 6 if your language allows that.

For most natlangs that allow double causativization, the "middle agent" (the one that the instigator gets to get the final performer to do something) is not agreed with by the doubly-causativized verb, even when both the initial instigator and the final performer are agreed with. Possibly someone's conlang is different.

If double-causativization and benefactive-applicativization can happen to ditransitive verbs in some language, then, if that would make the resulting verb exceed the language's limit on valency, some of the original core terms will have to be demoted to oblique-argument status in order to make room for the initial instigator and the beneficiary. Usually the middle agent would be displaced by the initial instigator; and usually the secondary object or the indirect object or the recipient would be displaced by the beneficiary.

Even languages that allow ditransitive verbs, may not have any verb-roots that start off already ditransitive; in some natlangs, all ditransitive verbs arise from causativizing or applicativizing verbs that already have valency 2.

Does any of that help? Is it too much disorganized data? Or do you understand it?

And does it answer your question?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently came to the realization that, thanks to a number of additions in the past few months, Aalmok has an enormously powerful agglutinative ability. I can now render this challenge into Aalmok in as little as two words. Granted these enormous words would be considered incredibly formal and literary and generally take a bit of effort to decipher, I find it very cool and it does prove to be an interesting look into the level at which Aalmok has changed since most of my translations thus far were made.

As two words in Aalmok, this sentence is rendered as:

.eaal baįbncaąřliympąhofřeaąnsīsonīlīī'zībīťadeaąšřndiģnonakwčnuwai.
Al Bob-ACCUSATIVE/GENITIVE.ADJUNCTIVE-Charlie-ACC/GEN.AJN-forcing-BENEFACTIVE.AJN-Francis-BEN.ANJ-Elizabeth-DATIVE/ADVERBIAL.AJN-Dasher-ACC/GEN.AJN-giving-BEN.AJN-CAU-agreement-PST-0.ACT-VBZ.3.SG
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@LingoDingo:
That is so cool! Cool

I very very much look forward to seeing it with the Interlinear Morphemic Gloss.

Does this mean Aalmok is polysynthetic?

You let Aalmok speakers incorporate the proper personal names of human beings into their verbs?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
I very very much look forward to seeing it with the Interlinear Morphemic Gloss.


I've added it now. Smile

eldin raigmore wrote:
Does this mean Aalmok is polysynthetic?


I would say so, yes. That and/or agglutinative.

eldin raigmore wrote:
You let Aalmok speakers incorporate the proper personal names of human beings into their verbs?


Yes, indeed. Gender and Animacy are to be generally not considered in sentence formation, though putting names into words is usually reserved for prestigious literature and company/brand names.
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Aert



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@LingoDingo: that's cool! I like the combinatorial aspect you've got there Smile

If your language is both polysynthetic and agglutinative, it may be an affixally-polysynthetic language (came across this term while trying to formalize my own - the paper is by Johanna Mattissen - 2006 "The Onyology and diachrony of polysynthesis" if you're interested).
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a look at Johanna Mattissen's polysynthetic subtypes and, while there are a good 50+ bound morphemes in Aalmok, I think compositionally polysynthetic describes Aalmok better.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LingoDingo wrote:
.... Johanna Mattissen's polysynthetic subtypes ....

Can you give us
[url=http://books.google.com/books?id=exvttrohJCwC&pg=PA292&dq=Johanna+Mattissen's+polysynthetic+subtypes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=40TpUsuKPIjDqgGFjoHACQ&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Johanna%20Mattissen's%20polysynthetic%20subtypes&f=false] a URL to link to for that [/url]?
Or, if not, the WorldCat or OCLC catalog-entry?
Thanks.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgive my tardiness. Mattissen's Subtypes can be found described on Wikipedia with the following URL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysynthetic_language#Johanna_Mattissen.27s_affixal_and_compositional_subtypes

I'll be posting an Aalmok Repurpose translation of this challenge as soon as I've gotten over a serious roadblock with verb types I stumbled into (hopefully before the end of the week).
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LingoDingo wrote:
Forgive my tardiness. Mattissen's Subtypes can be found described on Wikipedia with the following URL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysynthetic_language#Johanna_Mattissen.27s_affixal_and_compositional_subtypes

I'll be posting an Aalmok Repurpose translation of this challenge as soon as I've gotten over a serious roadblock with verb types I stumbled into (hopefully before the end of the week).


I look forward to that, LingoDingo. And thanks for the link to Mattissen.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And now, the Aalmok Repurpose(AR) translation of:

Al convinced Bob to force Charlie to give Dasher to Elizabeth for Francis.

Al-yn Bob-ge clemeln col želebu Charlie-yn Dasher-ši Elizabeth-ce Francis-yva dejnan.
Al-yn Bob-ge clem-el-n col žel-ebu Charlie-yn Dasher-ši Elizabeth-ce Francis-yva dejn-a-n
Al-ERG Bob-DAT convince-PFV-IND SUP.DM PROX.PN-CAUS Charlie-ERG Dasher-INS Elizabeth-DAT Francis-BEN exchange-IPFV-IND

AR is meant to be a sort of equivalent to PIE for an extremely thorough conworld I intend to start designing a few years from now.

*edits in red
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LingoDingo wrote:
And now, the Aalmok Repurpose(AR) translation of:

Al convinced Bob to force Charlie to give Dasher to Elizabeth for Francis.

Al-yn Bob-ge clemeln col dalebu Charlie-yn Dasher-ši Elizabeth-ce Francis-yva dejnan.
Al-yn Bob-ge clem-el-n col dal-ebu Charlie-yn Dasher-ši Elizabeth-ce Francis-yva dejn-a-n
Al-ERG Bob-DAT convince-PFV-IND SUP.DM MED.PN-CAUS Charlie-ERG Dasher-INS Elizabeth-DAT Francis-BEN exchange-IPFV-IND

AR is meant to be a sort of equivalent to PIE for an extremely thorough conworld I intend to start designing a few years from now.


Does SUP stand for superlative or supine or supplicative? If so, for which? I can see supplicative, and maybe I could see supine if I looked at it closely enough. Whatever it stands for, what does it mean in this use?
Does DM stand for discourse marker? Whatever it stands for, what does it mean in this use?
Does PN stand for pronoun? Whatever it stands for, how (and/or with what meaning) is it being used in this use?
Is there any problem with having two DATs?

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Thanks very much for the post!
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
Does SUP stand for superlative or supine or supplicative? ..., what does it mean in this use?


Supine. It means that the preceding clause was carried out in order for the following to be.

eldin raigmore wrote:
Does DM stand for discourse marker? ..., what does it mean in this use?


Yes. It introduces a new clause whose meaning is relative somehow (in this case, relative to the preceding clause).

eldin raigmore wrote:
Does PN stand for pronoun? ..., how (and/or with what meaning) is it being used in this use?


Yes. It is the second of the three 3rd person pronouns, the medial 3rd person. I should have included that in the gloss (3.MED.PN).

"MED" stands for medial (I take you had that figured out), which either means that the referent is closer to the listener or is the second of three previously mention parties in a continuing story.

eldin raigmore wrote:
Is there any problem with having two DATs?


If both of them are in the recipient or experiencer role than no. But I get the feeling that maybe that's not what you're asking.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LingoDingo wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
Does SUP stand for superlative or supine or supplicative? ..., what does it mean in this use?


Supine. It means that the preceding clause was carried out in order for the following to be.

eldin raigmore wrote:
Does DM stand for discourse marker? ..., what does it mean in this use?


Yes. It introduces a new clause whose meaning is relative somehow (in this case, relative to the preceding clause).

eldin raigmore wrote:
Does PN stand for pronoun? ..., how (and/or with what meaning) is it being used in this use?


Yes. It is the second of the three 3rd person pronouns, the medial 3rd person. I should have included that in the gloss (3.MED.PN).

"MED" stands for medial (I take you had that figured out), which either means that the referent is closer to the listener or is the second of three previously mention parties in a continuing story.

eldin raigmore wrote:
Is there any problem with having two DATs?


If both of them are in the recipient or experiencer role than no. But I get the feeling that maybe that's not what you're asking.


Thanks.
So, it's biclausal. So there's an ERG in each clause as well as a DAT in each clause. One clause is an adjunct clause in the other, kind of a clause-used-as-an-adverb (which is one interpretation of "supine"); in this case, a purpose adjunct.

About the MED medial pronoun; usually that means it's a demonstrative and there are three degrees of remoteness for demonstratives, to wit and namely videlicit, proximal and medial and distal. (The other kind of demonstrative that some languages have -- the "hic haec hoc" kind -- is "person-centered deixis", near-the-speaker vs near-the-addressee vs near-some-third-party (for instance the agent; or, just not near either the speaker or the addressee).

Oh heck! Wait! You just said MED was nearer the addressee than the speaker!

Is that the case in A.R.? (edit: A.R. has person-centered "deixis"(? is that the right word?) for its third-person pronouns. /edit)

But you also use the same "demonstrative" pronouns to refer to parts of the discourse, that are near in the discourse, or far in the discourse, or in the middle distance in the discourse. And/or maybe you sometimes use them to refer to how "far away" something is "psychologically" from the speaker or from the speech-act.

How much of that guess is true?
Is some of it close to true but you'd prefer to refine/clarify it?[/i]
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is completely as you said. There's even a videlicet that you'll see when I ressurect the 35 words project thread (though it works a little bit differently than "namely" in English).
I did just realize after looking at you say it though, that I should have used the proximal pronoun (I went ahead and edited it for that). Which one is used should have been based on how many possible referents are in the way instead of the order in which they were brought up.

I will expand to say that these pronouns are actually derivatives of a set of deictic prefixes of the form CV. As such, <l> functions to derive pronouns from these prefixes
(the videlicet mentioned above is on of these prefixes, I labeled it the "Hither Prefix" in my excel doc.). Therefore, technically, 3rd person pronouns have as many deictic distinctions as are made by these prefixes.
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