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TC: Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita mi ritrovai ...

 
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:49 pm    Post subject: TC: Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita mi ritrovai ... Reply with quote

:ita:
Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita
mi ritrovai per una selva oscura,
ch la diritta via era smarrita.

:eng:
In the middle of the highway of our life, I came to myself by a dark wood, where the straight way was lost.
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

:rai:

ri dasmeome,
Ẃnw uevasw uihusdkeogi
Riami estsenua ueviazui reimi.

we-POSS life.road-LOC
I-PAST came.upon dark.forest-ALL
SUBORD-place true.way lost-PASS DEM-place.

'Came upon' just feels like the best translation for 'uevasw', and the word 'ueviazw' literally means 'to cause to become unknown'.
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imbecilica



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

:vie:
Giữa lối đi của đời sống mnh
Ti lại đến mnh bn mũ đen thui
Nơi m con đường thẵng tan đi

[middle path-path of life live our
I came to me by wood blackened
Place where the path straight dispersed-dispersed]]

Vietnamese is a very nice language when it comes to poetry. Rolling Eyes
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the replies so far. In fact, I like them a lot! Thanks.

I'd say the 'uevasw' and 'ueviazw' words mean the Raitoliste translation could actually be poetic.

A literal translation of "mi ritrovai" would be "I re-found myself". The implication is that he woke up; or that he suddenly realized he was lost without remembering exactly how he got that way; or some such thing.

Are you translating from the Italian or from the English? Because that English translation was my own work, and may not be as good as some others. There are several famous translations, and they aren't the same as each other[/url]. (Also here, and here, and here, and here.)

e.g.
"Midway through the walk/journey of life I found myself (or came to myself) near/in/by a wood/forest so dark that the straight/right/straightforward way was lost".
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Vortex



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tosoa tntuhemayen ntteyenengku,
km tntuhema cyetimpm,
mlusoa ngkkikklakisisoa kesu wosaetsyuwe.

/"tao^.sw@ "tu.ndM_x.h@.m@.%jEn "nt_>ae^.y@.n@.%Ngu
"kam tu.ndM_x.h@.%ma "i.t`s`)@.tI.%mbum
"ma.lM_x.%soa Nk_>I."k_>u.l@.kI.sI.%soa "wao^.sE.%ti.s`M_x.w@/
to-soa tntu-hema-yen ntte-yen-ngku
km tntu-hema i-cye<ti>mpu-m
mlu ngkki-kklaki-si-soa kesu wa-o-tsyu-an-ma

middle-loc walk-loc.nom-gen live.gerund-gen-1pl.incl
straight.abs walk-loc.nom pass-to.lose<distant>-3sg.def-1sg.agt
dark-loc ass.pl-tree-pl-loc near near.past-perf-refl-to.find-1sg
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Aeetlrcreejl



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nogaroa hahja bahja, vit venom bzerla jakul d' ul pat lihareret.
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Vortex



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
Nogaroa hahja bahja, vit venom bzerla jakul d' ul pat lihareret.


Gloss?
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I realize that this thread is some five years old, but I felt like commenting because I'm Italian phylologist and this is Dante Alighieri.

I'd have said that "mi ritrovai" translates quite well to "I found myself", as in "I suddenly realized that I am". I've never before heard of the phrase "I came to myself", or at least used with this kind of meaning...

But well, since I'm neither Italian, nor English/American, my musings might be completely off.
And just so we have a (bad) translation:

Latvieu
Sava dzīves ceļa viducī paā
Es attapos mea biezoknī tumā,
Kur zudis bij ceļ, kas izvestu laukā.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
I'd have said that "mi ritrovai" translates quite well to "I found myself", as in "I suddenly realized that I am". I've never before heard of the phrase "I came to myself", or at least used with this kind of meaning...

In English idiom people sometimes say that someone (or some animal) "came to" to mean that s/he (it?) regained consciousness.
I can't find the reference at the moment but I think this is an abbreviation of "he came to himself" or "she came to herself". It (defeasibly, I guess) implies that one "awakens" or "arouses" out of a state other than natural sleep. This could be a daydream or some other lack of conscious focus (for instance, walking or driving "on automatic pilot"); or recovering from a drug or anesthetic or from a blow to the head; or whatever.

Anyway, "I found myself" is probably as good as "I came to myself"; I just thought "I found myself" seemed to imply that I was already searching for myself, but my guess was that Dante meant he more-or-less-suddenly realized that he was lost in a dark wood; as if he'd been walking while daydreaming and lost his way, then started to focus on his whereabouts and didn't know where he was.

I don't know Italian. I probably don't know it as well as you. I probably know English better than you; nevertheless I don't know whether my translation was any better than yours or anyone else's. It was just my best guess, (to paraphrase Martin Luther on translating the Gospels into German).

(edit): Did you read all the English translations here? (/edit)
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read some of them. Many perplexed me because they used structures I would've deemed un-grammatical. Others seemed just wrong. But oh well.

Well, I guess with Dante (as with many things) it might be more useful not to try to find the best translation in form, but to get the meaning.

For example, at this very point in time (as it is ~2:30 AM), I'm thinking about the implications of the part "la diritta via era smarrita" (aprox. "the straight way had been lost"). First of all, my guess would be that "diritto" in this context doesn't mean so much "straight" as "right, correct". I might be completely out of the water here, but I don't think there ever is a straight way in a forest (no matter physical or metaphorical).

Also, I'm thinking about the structures: "mi ritrovai" ("I found myself") and "era smarrita" ("had been lost") which both seem to indicate that Dante had no impact on this. He realized that he is in a forest (I imagine with the implication that for the previous part of his life he hadn't been paying attention), and then "the right way had been lost" instead of "I had lost the right way". Impersonal construction, putting the blame away from himself.

I'm thinking way too much about this.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe so, but I agree with the thoughts you just posted.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donmecro-mejro-besavź- źond
don-mec-ro mej-ro bes-avź=źond
I-you-POSS life-POSS journey-TEMP=POST.in
Gdeś-coguŋoŋ domideln
gd-eś co-guŋ-oŋ dom-id-el-n
obscurity-ATTR INDEF-forest-LOC discover-ACCID-PFV-IND
Śid śeg-sadi dbideln.
śid śeg- sad-i db-id-el-n
COM.DM propriety-ATTR path-INS lose-ACCID-PFV-IND

Although I have no standards for rhetoric in AR yet, I decided I try to get some semblance of a poetic feel into my translation. However, the best I could do was to have all the lines be eight syllables and following the same, albeit peculiar, meter, i.e. trimeter with dactylic feet on either side and a trochaic foot in the middle (the final line requires that the stress on the second word be suppressed in favor of stressing the DM).
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Last edited by LingoDingo on Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LingoDingo wrote:
Donmecro-mejro-besavź- źond
don-mec-ro mej-ro bes-avź=źond
I-you-POSS life-POSS journey-TEMP=POST.in
Gdeś-coguŋoŋ domideln
gd-eś co-guŋ-oŋ dom-id-el-n
obscurity-ATTR PROX-forest-LOC discover-ACCID-PFV-IND
Śid śegad-sadi dbideln.
śid śeg-ad sad-i db-id-el-n
COM.DM propriety-PTV path-INS lose-ACCID-PFV-IND

Although I have no standards for rhetoric in AR yet, I decided I try to get some semblance of a poetic feel into my translation. However, the best I could do was to have all the lines be eight syllables and following the same, albeit peculiar, meter, i.e. trimeter with dactylic feet on either side and a trochaic foot in the middle (the final line requires that the stress on the second word be suppressed in favor of stressing the DM).



Really good, IMO; or, at least, so I imagine.
Could we get a better feel for it if we heard it? Can you read it to us in A.R.?


Why is "propriety" in the ParTitiVe case? It's an ATTRibute of the path, isn't it? The same way obscurity is an attribute of the forest?
The natlangs that I know about that have partitive cases also have attributive cases IIANM AFAIK; and I think they'd use the attributive case of propriety here. A.R. has an ATTRibutive case; why not use it here? Is there some good poetic or rhetorical reason, or a grammatical or semantic reason?


I like that meter. Or I think I would like it if I heard it.
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LingoDingo
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
Why is "propriety" in the ParTitiVe [sic] case? It's an ATTRibute of the path, isn't it? The same way obscurity is an attribute of the forest?


You know, you're right... I'm honestly not entirely sure why I used the partitive case there. It's meant to mark a noun as being a costituent or property of the following word, while the attributive is meant to mark a noun as having similar characteristics as the following word.

Also, I noticed that I accidentally marked the INDEF morpheme as PROX!!! Embarassed

I will make these corrections.

eldin raigmore wrote:
Could we get a better feel for it if we heard it?


Maybe

eldin raigmore wrote:
Can you read it to us in A.R.?


I suppose I can. I've set up on soundcloud such that I can upload at least some readings. Here's a link!
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LingoDingo wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
Can you read it to us in A.R.?

I suppose I can. I've set up on soundcloud such that I can upload at least some readings. Here's a link!

eldin raigmore wrote:
I like that meter. Or I think I would like it if I heard it.

I was right! I do like it! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LingoDingo wrote:
. (other interesting stuff) ...

eldin raigmore wrote:
Can you read it to us in A.R.?


I suppose I can. I've set up on soundcloud such that I can upload at least some readings. Here's a link!


I listened to it again, and I liked it again!
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