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Translation Challenge: Cthulhu Noster.
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:56 pm    Post subject: Translation Challenge: Cthulhu Noster. Reply with quote

This is not original with me, but the author didn't put his/her name on it -- unless Olaus Wormius really is a real name. So I don't know how to attribute it.

Cthulhu noster qui es in maribus, sanctificetur nomen tuum; adveniat regnum tuum; fiat voluntas tua sicut in R'lyeh et in Y'ha-nthlei.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL, it's the Lord's Prayer except to Cthulhu.

Raitoliste:
ri riali Kathulahuro reila ekame me, ri laste tw etyŋati, ri olame ysw, na ri ove zw Ralieha me ii Yha-nathaleira me.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
LOL, it's the Lord's Prayer except to Cthulhu.

Raitoliste:
ri riali Kathulahuro reila ekame me, ri laste tw etyŋati, ri olame ysw, na ri ove zw Ralieha me ii Yha-nathaleira me.
Thanks.
Yeah, in English I make it:
"Our Chthulhu who art in the sea, hallowed be thy name; thy kingdom come, thy will be done in R'lyeh as it is in Y'ha-nthlei."

Interesting that Raitoliste has a lot of epenthetic vowels interpolated.


"Chthulhu f'thagn."
"Gesundheit! Here, let me help you wipe that off your face ...
Ewww, wait, that is your face!"
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
Interesting that Raitoliste has a lot of epenthetic vowels interpolated.


It has a strict (C)(V)V(V) syllable structure.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
Interesting that Raitoliste has a lot of epenthetic vowels interpolated.
It has a strict (C)(V)V(V) syllable structure.


I have theoretical or notational problems handling syllable nuclei that contain no vowels; I also have theoretical or notational problems handling syllable nuclei that contain more than one vowel.
(That is, I have no "system" for them; no design I could consider converting into software, for example).

I wanted Adpihi to have (C)(C)V(V)(C)(C) syllable structure, but I don't know why the second vowel wouldn't just start a new syllable.

So far Adpihi is really mostly CV. It's got some V and some VC and some CVC and some CCV, and I'm thinking of some (C)(C)V(C) and some (C)V(C)(C).

Do you have a systematic or programmatic way to divide Raitoliste into syllables? How would you syllabify "zaeiou", for instance?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simple - normally, separation would be indicated by diacritics, but if there aren't any, then you just do the first possible diphthong.

Thus:
zaeiou = za.ei.o.u (that actually only has two possible diphthongs - it could only ever be za.ei.o.u, (if spelled zaiou) za.e.io[jo].u, or (if spelled zaou) za.e.i.o.u).
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolling Eyes What's Cthulhu?
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The weird god-creature from a story by H. P. Lovecraft.

Emitare:
lje sjiremanaireu Kulhulhue, Eryuyale merilhe karye; etje kareme; yarane evurye Ruliemai ha-nuthaleimaime.
1-UNIV.ATT sea-INESS-COP-ATT-and Cthulhu-VOC, holy.become-IMP 2-DESCGEN-ATT name-VOC; come-IMP kingdom-VOC, do.PASS-IMP want-NOM.VOC R'lyeh-INESS Y'ha-nthlei-INESS-COMP.

(Emitare uses IMP-VOC constructions for expressing 3rd-person commands, literally, 'your name, be hallowed'.

Thread necroing bytheway, but it gives me an opportunity to compare my last lang with my current one.
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ooooooohhhhhhh, I see. (^_^)
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
Emitare:
lje sjiremanaireu Kulhulhue, Eryuyale merilhe karye; etje kareme; yarane evurye Ruliemai ha-nuthaleimaime.
1-UNIV.ATT sea-INESS-COP-ATT-and Cthulhu-VOC, holy.become-IMP 2-DESCGEN-ATT name-VOC; come-IMP kingdom-VOC, do.PASS-IMP want-NOM.VOC R'lyeh-INESS Y'ha-nthlei-INESS-COMP.
Please, remind us (well, OK, remind me) again:
What does -ATT stand for? "Attributive", maybe? Like, an attributive relative clause, rather than a restrictive relative clause?
What does DESCGEN stand for?

I'm thinking:
lje == 1-UNIV.ATT == "Our" (because of the "UNIV", it means "belonging to all we living creatures"; I don't know what the ".ATT" means, though)
sjiremanaireu == sea-INESS-COP-ATT-and == "(who) art in the sea" (attributive relative clause; the only Cthulhu happens to be in the sea. Not a restritive RC; not, we're not talking to all Cthulhus, just the one in the sea.) (And I don't know why the "-and" gets tacked on. Nor why the "-COP" gets included, if it stands for "copula"; otherwise, what does it stand for?)
Kulhulhue == C'thulhu-VOC == O Cthulhu
...
merilhe == 2-DESCGEN-ATT == "thy" or "your", but I don't know about "DESCGEN" or "ATT".
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
Tolkien_Freak wrote:
Emitare:
lje sjiremanaireu Kulhulhue, Eryuyale merilhe karye; etje kareme; yarane evurye Ruliemai ha-nuthaleimaime.
1-UNIV.ATT sea-INESS-COP-ATT-and Cthulhu-VOC, holy.become-IMP 2-DESCGEN-ATT name-VOC; come-IMP kingdom-VOC, do.PASS-IMP want-NOM.VOC R'lyeh-INESS Y'ha-nthlei-INESS-COMP.
Please, remind us (well, OK, remind me) again:
What does -ATT stand for? "Attributive", maybe? Like, an attributive relative clause, rather than a restrictive relative clause?
What does DESCGEN stand for?

A, sumimasen. -ATT is attributive (I'm using it instead of what I used to use, which was -ADJ for adjectival), since I recently found out that that's the proper word for the idea. The best analogy is Japanese's rentaikei. (I wish Wikipedia had an article on Classical Japanese grammar, Classical Japanese far better illustrates the rentaikei/shuushikei contrast. Also, I don't know what the differentiation you're talking about is.)
DESCGEN is descriptive genitive, in contrast to the possessive genitive.

Quote:
I'm thinking:
lje == 1-UNIV.ATT == "Our" (because of the "UNIV", it means "belonging to all we living creatures"; I don't know what the ".ATT" means, though)

Actually, that's a failure on my part. Should be ljzje (1-UNIV-DESCGEN.ATT), I forgot the possessive element Embarassed As I said before, .ATT means 'attributive'.
Quote:
sjiremanaireu == sea-INESS-COP-ATT-and == "(who) art in the sea" (attributive relative clause; the only Cthulhu happens to be in the sea. Not a restritive RC; not, we're not talking to all Cthulhus, just the one in the sea.) (And I don't know why the "-and" gets tacked on. Nor why the "-COP" gets included, if it stands for "copula"; otherwise, what does it stand for?)

Again, not quite sure what the restrictive/attributive differentiation is. -COP is copula (is in the sea, vs. just in the sea), and the -and is there so that it's obvious that it's our Cthulhu, not our sea (literally 'Cthulhu who is ours and who is in the sea).
Quote:
Kulhulhue == Cthulhu-VOC == O Cthulhu

Yup.
Quote:
merilhe == 2-DESCGEN-ATT == "thy" or "your", but I don't know about "DESCGEN" or "ATT".

Another bit of failure, should be melhe (from PKM mailhuyei (mai-lhui-ei), contracted to me-lh(u)e). Gloss is right though (and I mentioned DESCGEN and ATT, and it probably should be more DESCGEN.ATT)
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
DESCGEN is descriptive genitive, in contrast to the possessive genitive.
Two things; a question and a possible suggestion.
(1) I still don't know why a possessive pronoun would be in the descriptive genitive instead of in the possessive genitive. I'm assuming by "descriptive genitive" you mean like "of gold" in "ring of gold" for a golden ring? Or "of state" in "ship of state"? It's reasonable there could be two (or more) different "genitives", and possession could be different from some or all of the others.
But it seems to me this is in fact possessive. If you use different possessives depending on whether the possessor is subordinate to the possessum instead of the other way 'round ("my God", "my father", "my Lord", "my master" as opposed to "my servant", "my son", "my vassal", "my slave"), why would you call one of them "descriptive"? They're both still "possessive" IMO.
Perhaps you've already explained all this in some on-line document about your conlang in general? If so, what's the URL?
(2) When you have a two-word phrase like "DESCriptive GENitive" to abbreviate, it might be better not to just run them together. See what the Leipzig glossing rules, or Lehman's recommendations, do.
DESCGEN.ATT would be for when a single morpheme carried both the DESCGEN meaning and the ATT meaning -- an instance of "fusing", that tends to make the language more "fusional" and less "agglutinative".
DESCGEN-ATT would be for when there were two different morphemes, one for the DESCGEN meaning and one for the ATT meaning.

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
Again, not quite sure what the restrictive/attributive differentiation is.
When we use an adjective, or any phrase or clause which can be used where an adjective is used, there are two kinds of things we can be saying.
"The red apple was delicious" meaning "The apple was delicious (and red)";
or "The red apple was delilcious" meaning "...(but the green and yellow ones were awful)."

If we use an adjective, or a genitive phrase, or a relative clause, more-or-less appositively -- that is, just to say a little more about the noun (or noun-phrase) it modifies, not to distinguish our actual referents from among other possible referents of the same noun -- that is said to be "attributive" use, and the adjective or genitive or relative-clause is a "secondary predication".

If, on the other hand, we use an adjective, or a genitive phrase, or a relative clause, to pick out the things we are actually referring to from among a set of other possible referents of the same noun, that is called "restrictive" use.

"The boy, who had raised his hand, answered the question." This just means the boy answered the question; the RC just means that he happened to raise his hand before answering. This "who had raised his hand" is an attributive RC.

"The boy who had raised his hand answered the question." This means that the boy who answered the question was the one who had raised his hand, not the one who gazed out the window nor the one who slunk down in his seat to hide nor the one who busily searched through the textbook nor the one who snored and drooled on his desktop; and not the boy who shouted out "Ooh! ooh! I know! I know!" while ignoring proper classroom etiquette.

-----------------------------------------

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
-COP is copula (is in the sea, vs. just in the sea),
I'm not sure I am clear on what you mean the difference to be.

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
and the -and is there so that it's obvious that it's our Cthulhu, not our sea (literally 'Cthulhu who is ours and who is in the sea).
Thanks; I hadn't thought of that. Obviously it could be good to make that clear.
Some languages would make the "our" word agree somehow with the "C'thulhu" word and not agree with the "sea" word. Is that not possible in your conlang?

------------

Thanks for the explanations.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
Tolkien_Freak wrote:
DESCGEN is descriptive genitive, in contrast to the possessive genitive.
Two things; a question and a possible suggestion.
(1) I still don't know why a possessive pronoun would be in the descriptive genitive instead of in the possessive genitive. I'm assuming by "descriptive genitive" you mean like "of gold" in "ring of gold" for a golden ring? Or "of state" in "ship of state"? It's reasonable there could be two (or more) different "genitives", and possession could be different from some or all of the others.
But it seems to me this is in fact possessive. If you use different possessives depending on whether the possessor is subordinate to the possessum instead of the other way 'round ("my God", "my father", "my Lord", "my master" as opposed to "my servant", "my son", "my vassal", "my slave"), why would you call one of them "descriptive"? They're both still "possessive" IMO.
Perhaps you've already explained all this in some on-line document about your conlang in general? If so, what's the URL?

It somehow seems less possessive to me then descriptive (I don't possess my God), but it could easily go either way. Since my native language doesn't make this distinction, it's hard for me to distinguish in my conlang. (The distinction is between possessive and descriptive.)
Perhaps exactly how the difference works is defined on a language-by-language basis, and in Emitare this would work as descriptive, but in some other lang it would be possessive. IDK, I haven't had much experience with this particular distinction in other langs.

Quote:
(2) When you have a two-word phrase like "DESCriptive GENitive" to abbreviate, it might be better not to just run them together. See what the Leipzig glossing rules, or Lehman's recommendations, do.
DESCGEN.ATT would be for when a single morpheme carried both the DESCGEN meaning and the ATT meaning -- an instance of "fusing", that tends to make the language more "fusional" and less "agglutinative".
DESCGEN-ATT would be for when there were two different morphemes, one for the DESCGEN meaning and one for the ATT meaning.

I'm not quite as familiar with the glossing rules as I would like to be, and especially not with the rules for creating new abbreviations.
I'm also not quite good with the distinction between DESCGEN.ATT and DESCGEN-ATT, since it both is and isn't a single morpheme. (DESCGEN is -lj"u (not on a computer with easy access to diacritics right now), DESCGEN(-/.)ATT is -lje, but from PKM -ljui and -ljuyei (-ljui-ei), and no speaker yet thinks of it as a separate morpheme.)

Quote:
Tolkien_Freak wrote:
Again, not quite sure what the restrictive/attributive differentiation is.
---snipped---

Ah, I get it now. Thanks.

Quote:
Tolkien_Freak wrote:
-COP is copula (is in the sea, vs. just in the sea),
I'm not sure I am clear on what you mean the difference to be.

Should have italicised that: is in the sea, vs. just in the sea. Makes it a verb 'to be in the sea' instead of just the descriptive 'in the sea'.

Quote:
Tolkien_Freak wrote:
and the -and is there so that it's obvious that it's our Cthulhu, not our sea (literally 'Cthulhu who is ours and who is in the sea).
Thanks; I hadn't thought of that. Obviously it could be good to make that clear.
Some languages would make the "our" word agree somehow with the "C'thulhu" word and not agree with the "sea" word. Is that not possible in your conlang?

It is impossible, ATT doesn't agree with anything (it's immutable). If you string word-ATT noun-MORPHEME(S)-ATT noun, it's not clear which noun the first ATT is modifying (and it looks like it modifies the middle word, which is in this case not true).

Quote:
Thanks for the explanations.

Thanks for the questions!
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cthulhu hranci tsr inc cag kav, yosis egxci senlws km. Om egxci is swl, avtwr egxci is telu R'lyeh cag tsr Y'ha-nthlei cag km an.

cthulhu 3.pl.excl-GEN REL sea in be.LOC, name 2.divine**-GEN respect-ADJ be. land 2.divine*-GEN INF-IMP come, need-NOUN 2.divine*-GEN INF-IMP PASSIVE-do r'lyeh in REL y'ha-nthlei in be like.

* There is actually only 1 divine pronoun that can be used for first, second, or third person.

"Our Cthulhu who is in the sea, your name is respected. Your land comes, your need is done in R'lyeh like that which is in Y'ha-nthei."


Last edited by Hemicomputer on Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice.

Hemicomputer wrote:
* "Tsr" means "what" or "who" only in the "that which" sense, not in the interrogative sense.

I would suggest glossing that REL, as in relative pronoun. IDK why most Indo-European languages have similar forms for REL and INTERROG.

Quote:
** There is actually only 1 divine pronoun that can be used for first, second, or third person.

Now that is an interesting idea. How does it end up working?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
Nice.
Why, thank ye.

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
Hemicomputer wrote:
* "Tsr" means "what" or "who" only in the "that which" sense, not in the interrogative sense.

I would suggest glossing that REL, as in relative pronoun.
I see, thanks for the tip.
Tolkien_Freak wrote:
IDK why most Indo-European languages have similar forms for REL and INTERROG.
Well, the two sort of share a general meaning of "unknown/irrelevant person." (not that I know anything about language development.)

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
Quote:
** There is actually only 1 divine pronoun that can be used for first, second, or third person.

Now that is an interesting idea. How does it end up working?

Well, I haven't done much talking about God(s) in Holxws, but nothings gone too wrong so far. I first came up with it on the basis of "God is universal, and therefore 1st 2nd and 3rd person all at once!" This may change, since my concept Holxws religious ideas has expanded now.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hemicomputer wrote:
Tolkien_Freak wrote:
Quote:
** There is actually only 1 divine pronoun that can be used for first, second, or third person.

Now that is an interesting idea. How does it end up working?

Well, I haven't done much talking about God(s) in Holxws, but nothings gone too wrong so far. I first came up with it on the basis of "God is universal, and therefore 1st 2nd and 3rd person all at once!" This may change, since my concept Holxws religious ideas has expanded now.


That's cool. I guess it would end up working like Japanese, where you can use a person's name or title in either 1st or 2nd person. I like the idea, leave it if you can ^_^
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
IDK why most Indo-European languages have similar forms for REL and INTERROG.
I read (and posted) about this once. World-wide and cross-linguistically, regardless of language-family, linguistic area (sprachbund), or (up to a point) language type, relativizers tend to be similar to, and diachronically derived from, three other kinds of words:
* demonstratives, like "that";
* question-words, like "who" and "which";
* some third thing I've forgotten Embarassed Rolling Eyes Sad
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
I read (and posted) about this once. World-wide and cross-linguistically, regardless of language-family, linguistic area (sprachbund), or (up to a point) language type, relativizers tend to be similar to, and diachronically derived from, three other kinds of words:
* demonstratives, like "that";
* question-words, like "who" and "which";
* some third thing I've forgotten Embarassed Rolling Eyes Sad


Makes sense though. English has both the first two competing (and the first one is winning). Wonder what the third one is.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hooray! I got to invent a vocative case for this one! And a relative pronoun!

"Our Chthulhu who art in the sea, hallowed be thy name; thy kingdom come, thy will be done in R'lyeh as it is in Y'ha-nthlei." -Thanks Eldin

Culusew, mor san ŝosor lrvỉ nun, wỉrno mentolorr lrvỉ nun; voenalenno hesvỉ nun, hyavno dỉrvr lrvỉ nun, san R'lyeh lc san Y'ha-nthei lrvỉ nun.

Cthulhu-1stplposs(V), which in sea-great to-be gnomic-indicator, name-2ndposs(S) holy to-be gnomic-indicator; kingdom-2ndposs(S) to-come gnomic-indicator, will-2ndposs(S) done to-be gnomic-blah, in R as/like in Y to-be g-i.

Mor is used for people, animals, inanimate objects, etc. Dỉrvr is the adjective/past participle form of the verb to-do: dỉrvỉ.
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