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Iussida

 
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yssida



Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 253
Location: sa jaan lang

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:41 am    Post subject: Iussida Reply with quote

Disclaimer: I am no expert in linguistics. I would appreciate any help or suggestion.
Basic Phonology X-SAMPA values are given in slashes '//'

Stops
p /p/
t /t/
k /k/
' /?/
b /b/
d /d/
g /g/


Aspirated Stops
ph /p_h/
th /t_h/
kh /k_h/

Liquids
l /l/
r /4/
y /j/
h /h/
w /w/

Nasals
m /m/
n /n/
ng /N/

Primary Vowels
a /a/
i /i/
u /u/

Syllabic Consonants
m /m-/
n /n-/
ng /N-/
r /r-/
l /l-/

Update: I've made the voiced plosives as phonemes in their own right. Also made the necessary adjustments for the Syllabic Consonants.

A few of the rules in phonotactics are: voiced plosives can NEVER occur in so *kb *bt *kg etc are not allowed, the same vowels cannot occur in a hiatus so *uu *aa *ii are not allowed, they dissimilate to 'uo' and 'a'a' and 'ie'
Some Grammar Notes

Unnamed Conlang, or simply Nga Yssida, gets a lot of inspiration from Philippine languages. It marks verbs based on focus, namely Actor Focus, Undergoer Focus, Locative Focus, Benefactive Focus, and Instrumental Focus. In Philippine languages, there were just the Actor and Undergoer focus, I just added the three for the heck of it.

There are only three cases for nouns namely Direct, Ergative-Accusative*, and Oblique.

How this works is that when the verb is marked in Undergoer Focus, the Direct becomes the patient (receiver/'undergoer'), Ergative-Accusative takes the role of agent or doer of the action. When marked in Actor focus, the roles are simply reversed. In the other three focuses, the direct case becomes the 'place where the verb happened', 'person/thing which benefits from the action', and 'the tool used for the action' while the ergative becomes the 'doer' and 'undergoer' in that order.

Example using English (omitting things such as 'the' and 'a' for clarity):

1. John-direct chased-actor focus dog-acc/erg.
in simple English, John chased dog. Now let's try to shift focus, shall we:

2. John-direct chased-undergoer focus dog-acc/erg.
now, it's the dog who's chasing John!

As you can see, there would be no need to change the cases, unlike English.

*Ergative and Accusative, different entities, are marked similarly since they only appear once in each type of sentence. It doesn't cause ambiguity.

All of these stem from my imperfect understanding of linguistics. I do not want to attempt to explain any of these. For that, please go to the Wikipedia article on morphosyntax. Just search for morphosyntax, can't give links for now.


One interesting feature is that there are no actual adjective. These roles are filled in by stative quasi-verbs. They basically show state, ex. state-of-beauty for beautiful, state-of-anger for angry. They can also be marked for tense like was-in-a-state-of-beauty girl (girl who was once beautiful) etc.

Unlike true verbs, these quasi-verbs are not marked for focus except when it expresses a state of becoming (actor focus) like become-beautiful.

Sample Phrases

Vocabulary
ta- direct marker
sa- ergative/accusative marker
nga- oblique marker
aiw- n. bird
mai- beautiful
tiwdiw- sing (as in birdsong)
na-predicate connector
da-existential

ta haiw na mai-the bird is beautiful
da haiw- there is a bird
mai haiw-there is a beautiful bird
ta haiw ta mai- a beautiful bird
ta haiw ta mai (na) rdiwdiw- the beautiful bird sings
ta diwdiw sa haiw sa mai ldiwdiw- the beautiful bird sings a song

We could also use verb phrases like nouns appending a focus marker before it. ex: ta rdiwdiw, referring to the singer. ta ldiwdiw, referring to that which was sung.

ta rdiwdiw na haiw- that which sings is a bird

I've only gotten up to that point. Keep in mind Nga Yssida is still in infancy (a week's idea) and is likely to have changes in the future. More to come! Any suggestions?
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Last edited by yssida on Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:50 pm; edited 4 times in total
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StrangeMagic
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really like how it is coming along. My favourite part is the adjectives, they are quite unique! ^_^

I'm not a great linguist either so I am unsure of what the Vocalic Consonants will be represented as in X-SAMPA
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Unnamed Conlang (as of now atleast) Reply with quote

yssida wrote:
....
Vocalic Consonants*
m //
n //
ng //
r //
l //

*If anyone knows how to represent these in X-SAMPA, I would like your help. Thanks!
...


Look for "Syllabic". It's = or _= .

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your case-system is something like, but not the same as, the Hierarchical Alignment Systems of languages with Direct and Inverse Grammatical Voices; and is also something like, but not the same as, the "Austronesian/Philippine" or "Split Transitive" system; and also is something like, but not the same as, "Trigger" systems.

In the hierarchical system, the nouns come in a hierarchy; "John", being a proper noun referring to a human, would be higher than "the dog", which is a common noun referring to a non-human. So in Direct Voice "chased John the dog" would mean John chased the dog, but in Inverse Voice "chased-INV John the dog" would mean the dog chased John.

Your system differs because the Hierarchy used in your system is that of (syntactic) Subject > (Primary or Direct) (syntactic) Object > (other things); instead of Gender or Noun-Class. In other words, the Case-marking, not the Noun's Class or Gender, determines where in the Hierarchy the Noun goes.

In the "Split Transitive" system (aka "Austronesian/Philippin Alignment"), there are three cases; the Nominative-or-Absolutive case for the syntactic Subject (no matter what its semantic role), the Ergative case for the non-Subject semantic Agent; and the Accusative case for the non-Subject semantic Patient.
The Verb doesn't have to be morphologically marked for Agent-Focus or Patient-Focus.
("Absolutive" derives its meaning from the fact that it is usually indicated by a "zero-morpheme" for a Case-affix; that is, the absence of any Case affix means the Case is "Absolutive". So I'll gloss it as "(-NOM)", in parentheses, to show that chances are the morpheme there is a "zero".)
"Chased John(-NOM) the dog-ACC" means "John chased the dog" and is in Agent Focus.
"Chased John(-NOM) the dog-ERG" means "John was chased by the dog" and is in Patient Focus.
"Chased John-ACC the dog(-NOM)" means "the dog chased John" and is in Agent Focus.
"Chased John-ERG the dog(-NOM)" means "the dog was chased by John" and is in Patient Focus.

Your system differs in that ERG/ACC is just one case (there's no difference between ERG and ACC), and consequently the verb must be marked in order to show what semantic roles the syntactic Subject and syntactic (Primary or Direct) Object play.

In the Trigger systems, one participant is marked as the syntactic Subject (sometimes called Focus and sometimes called Topic), and the Voice-marking on the Verb shows which semantic role it occupies. All other participants are Case-marked to show which semantic roles they occupy.
The "TRIGGER" is a definite article which is also a "nominative" adposition; that is, it both marks its complement noun as definite, and as the syntactic Subject.
So
"Chased-ACTIV TRIGGER-John dog-ACC" would mean "John chased the (or a) dog";
"Chased-PASSIV TRIGGER-John dog-ERG" would mean "John was chased by the (or a) dog";
"Chased-ACTIV John-ACC TRIGGER-dog" would mean "The dog chased (a) John";
"Chased-PASSIV John-ERG TRIGGER-dog" would mean "The dog was chased by (a) John".

Your system differs in that one cannot figure out the semantic role played by either the syntactic Subject nor the syntactic (Primary or Direct) Object just based on their Case-marking; one needs also to consult the Voice of the Verb. The non-Subject Agent or Patient is not Case-marked to show it is a semantic Agent or a semantic Patient, but only to show it is in the second grammatical relation (Direct or Primary Object). In effect, what you call "the Direct Case"-marker is a "Subject Trigger" and what you call "the Erg/Acc Case"-marker is an "Object Trigger"; and in one Voice, the Subject is the Agent and the Object is the Patient, while in another Voice, the Subject is the Patient and the Object is the Agent.

Many languages have a "Passive Voice" in which the Patient is promoted to Subject and the Agent is demoted to Object. That isn't true of most languages we're used to, though; in most languages we're used to, the Passive Voice promotes the Patient to Subject but then demotes the Agent out of the core altogether, turning it either into an Oblique Argument, or dispensing with it entirely and making it implicit; English and many other familiar languages give us the choice of either making the Agent implicit or making it an Oblique Argument.

Some syntactically-ergative languages have an "Anti-Passive Voice" in which the Agent is promoted to Absolutive (Subject) and the Patient is demoted to Ergative (Object). But more ergative languages have an Anti-Passive Voice which promotes the Agent to Absolutive (Subject) but then demotes the Patient out of the core altogether, turning it either into an Oblique Argument, or dispensing with it entirely and making it implicit; many of them give us the choice of either making the Patient implicit or making it an Oblique Argument.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Adjectives as Stative Verbs" is nice. Lots of languages do that.
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Serali
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi!

Welcome and I like your language alot. Like Strange Magic said it's very unique and I like alot of the words. Does it have a script? If it does I would like to see it. I'm very fond of scripts. Look around and you'll see what I'm taking about. Mr. Green

Post more when you can and I hope you enjoy it here!


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langover94



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lookin good

eldin, you leave the longest posts in the history of forums Very Happy

i like all of the tagalog influences on your conlang... it gives it a unique sound. can you possibly post the consonants and vowels in IPA? you dont have to but it would help me understand the pronunciation better

and by the way: welcome to the forum!!

langover94 Very Happy
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

langover94 wrote:
eldin, you leave the longest posts in the history of forums Very Happy
Maybe so. Are they too long? Some people have said they wish I didn't say as much, but others appreciate it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Yssida: I like your conlang so far and encourage you to keep at it.
I didn't mean, by saying your case-system was different from any natlang I know about, to give the impression I thought you should change it; instead, I'm kind of surprised there aren't (AFAIK) any natlangs like that, and do want you to keep on.
Also, I didn't mean, by noting that not having a separate class of adjectives, but stating those ideas via a kind of verb, actually occurs in several natlangs, to suggest that it would be uninteresting. On the contrary I think it would be interesting.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

StrangeMagic wrote:
I really like how it is coming along. My favourite part is the adjectives, they are quite unique! ^_^
Depends what you mean. Lots of languages merge adjectives in with the verbs; lots of languages merge adjectives in with the nouns; lots of languages merge adverbs in with the adjectives. This is especially true of polysynthetic languages. Maybe Yssida's adjectives are unique in some other way, though. What did you mean?

StrangeMagic wrote:
I'm not a great linguist either so I am unsure of what the Vocalic Consonants will be represented as in X-SAMPA
I'm not a great linguist either, but X-SAMPA calls them "Syllabic Consonants", and they are denoted with a = or a _= .
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langover94



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin, your posts are fine, and they are very informative too.
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yssida



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you all for your very kind comments. I understand many of you have already made a name for yourselves in the conlanging community, I'm actually quite honored. (Forgive the stiff courtesy).I am sure to keep this.

@StrangeMagic: Thank you. Very Happy
@eldin: i am at awe......you are now my idol, and everything seemed to fall in place! I was actually surprised no (or if there was, not yet found) natlang worked like that. Does it violate any of those universal-stuff?And oh, syllabic, yes!
@serali: it doesn't have a script yet, i'm planning to have one, once I reach the 100 word mark.Smile
@langover: most of those sounds did actually come from Tagalog, the 'syllabic' consonants came from somewhere else, like Sanskrit. I still don't know how to input IPA, sadly:(

And by the way what is (AFAIK)?
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yssida



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another question: how would I derive new vowels from the set of {a, i, and u}? This is basically a classical language and it supposed to have modern forms, well, relatives...I've tried looking at laryngeals but doesn't work, looking at how tagalog derived the {e and o}, but I don't want it to sound like tagalog! Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
StrangeMagic wrote:
I really like how it is coming along. My favourite part is the adjectives, they are quite unique! ^_^
Depends what you mean. Lots of languages merge adjectives in with the verbs; lots of languages merge adjectives in with the nouns; lots of languages merge adverbs in with the adjectives. This is especially true of polysynthetic languages. Maybe Yssida's adjectives are unique in some other way, though. What did you mean?


Oh right, I didn't know that there were so many languages like that already. I was saying it was unique because it did that, but I guess it isn't now, but still I like it! ^_^

@Yssida: You're welcome! and AFAIK is As Far As I Know
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

langover94 wrote:
eldin, your posts are fine, and they are very informative too.
Very nice of you to say so! Thanks.

yssida wrote:
I am sure to keep this.
Good!

yssida wrote:
@eldin: i am at awe......you are now my idol, and everything seemed to fall in place!
I really, really enjoy finding out I've helped someone! Very Happy So thanks. But, it might be dangerous to take me as an "idol" ...

yssida wrote:
I was actually surprised no (or if there was, not yet found) natlang worked like that.
Well, none I've heard about. Which probably means, probably not published in a book, unless it's one of the more recent books. (OTOH I haven't read anything like every book.) It could be in a journal somewhere and I wouldn't know.

yssida wrote:
Does it violate any of those universal-stuff?
Not as far as I am aware. There's a searchable database of universals you could look through. See http://www.uni-kassel.de/fb8/misc/lfb/html/text/2frame.html, http://mmm.lingue.unibo.it/resources.php, http://languagelink.let.uu.nl/~lion/?p=Database_overview&lang=en. I'm pretty sure it doesn't violate any of Greenberg's original 45 universals; I don't have them memorized but I'm pretty familiar with them. But over 500 universals have been proposed by now, and I doubt I've even heard of all of them.

yssida wrote:
And oh, syllabic, yes!
Lots of natlangs have syllables that contain no vowels, using fairly-sonorous consonants as syllable-nuclei; the "ble" in "syllable" may be an English example. But when conlanging it's easier to construct your syllable structure around a single vowel as nucleus, so syllabic consonants don't seem IME to come up so often in conlangs. I'd like to see someone make a go of them.

yssida wrote:
I still don't know how to input IPA, sadly:(
Neither do I! That's why we have SAMPA and X-SAMPA and Z-SAMPA and CXS.

yssida wrote:
And by the way what is (AFAIK)?
As Strange_Magic pointed out, "As Far As I Know". And "IME" is "In My Experience".

yssida wrote:
Another question: how would I derive new vowels from the set of {a, i, and u}? This is basically a classical language and it supposed to have modern forms, well, relatives...I've tried looking at laryngeals but doesn't work, looking at how tagalog derived the {e and o}, but I don't want it to sound like tagalog! Smile
I am afraid I don't know much about sound-changes and how sounds arise from earlier sounds. I hope someone else can answer you.

StrangeMagic wrote:
Quote:
StrangeMagic wrote:
I really like how it is coming along. My favourite part is the adjectives, they are quite unique! ^_^
Depends what you mean. Lots of languages merge adjectives in with the verbs; lots of languages merge adjectives in with the nouns; lots of languages merge adverbs in with the adjectives. This is especially true of polysynthetic languages. Maybe Yssida's adjectives are unique in some other way, though. What did you mean?
Oh right, I didn't know that there were so many languages like that already. I was saying it was unique because it did that, but I guess it isn't now, but still I like it! ^_^
Yes, so do I; it makes it unlike most of the languages most of us are most familiar with (which is good), but it's attested in natlangs so it's realistic (which is also good).
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langover94



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you guys have the weirdest lingo (no offense, but ive never heard anything that you say on this forum Very Happy)
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yssida



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the meaning of that? Sorry I'm not very good at English Sad
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

langover94 wrote:
you guys have the weirdest lingo (no offense, but ive never heard anything that you say on this forum :D)


yssida wrote:
What is the meaning of that? Sorry I'm not very good at English :(


Which things are you having trouble with?

As for the "'net-speak", you can find the various acronyms by Googling for them. That gets you IMO (in my opinion), IMHO (in my humble opinion), IMNSHO (in my not so humble opinion), IIRC (if I remember correctly), ISTR (I seem to recall), IME (in my experience), IMD (in my dialect), AFMCL (as for my conlang), ANADEW (a natlang already does even worse), YAEPT (yet another English pronunciation thread), and so on.

If you don't understand natlang, conlang, natscript, conscript, natculture, conculture, conworld, etc., you can Google for them, too. But "con" means "constructed" and "nat" means "natural", for the most part. (Of course "conscript" also means "draftee", so you might find it faster if you look for "neographies" than for "conscripts".)

Nearly anything used here you don't understand can be found by using Google. If there's more than one choice and you don't know which is meant, or if it's not on Google, you can ask us here and we'll tell you.

After all, that's how we found out. This isn't expected to be inborn knowledge! Basically anything enough people find themselves typing and reading enough times, they'll invent a neologism, hypocorism, nickname, short form, abbreviation, or acronym for. They'll usually try to make it obvious to the experienced reader what it stands for even if the reader has never seen that particular abbreviation; and try to make it very easy for the typist to remember, as well.
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yssida



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm ok with the net speak. I just didn't get the gist of what he said
Quote:
you guys have the weirdest lingo (no offense, but ive never heard anything that you say on this forum Very Happy)

It's not that I was offended, I just didn't quite get it.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking forward to seeing the script.....wheeeeeeeeeeeee! Mr. Green


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yssida



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hopefully in a few months! in the meantime, i'll be working on the lexicon....
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OOOOOOH! Sounds like it's going to be a x-mas present! YAY! Mr. Green


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yssida



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

perhaps even earlier!im thinking of something though not really designed to be complex
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! boingy! Mr. Green Looking forward to seeing it!


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