Vreleksá Forum Index Vreleksá
The Alurhsa Word for Constructed: Creativity in both scripts and languages
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

question for all forumers
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Vreleksá Forum Index -> Conreligion and Conphilosophy
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
StrangeMagic
Admin


Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 637

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't mind where it is and I do not mind if we talk about religion, as long as we are sensible.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
halyihev



Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 175
Location: Vermont, New England / Vrïtálá Kritsensá, Álurhná

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am Christian, although I don't really tend to include any denominational connection in that because I've never found any one that I prefer over all others. I guess the safest way to put it is I'm a Jesus follower.

I will also say that my Christian faith has some heavy Alurhsa overlays in both my beliefs and my practices. So not only does my religion affect my conworling, my conworlding is spiritually real enough to me that it also affects how I practice my religion.
_________________
Dwirze ghárìlen ershónyá áqálán.

Álurhsá Ólevár/Alurhsa Website: http://alurhsa.org
Sehályensá Víláren/Bilingual Blog: http://blog.alurhsa.org
Álurhsá Ásálqáren/Alurhsa Board: http://forum.alurhsa.org
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
langover94



Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 509
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's great!! i guess that if you dont want to then you dont have to belong to a certain denomination of christianity as long as you are "a Jesus follower".
_________________
Join us at: The Renewed Spirits Forum!
Please join for good discussion. (We need members!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tsulaokiw



Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

langover94 wrote:
catholics believe that there is definitely a difference between god and satan. for instance, god IS NOT a judge and people only go to hell because they say, in a sense, "sorry god, im sure heaven is really nice, but its just not for me". god sees all people as equals and does not have any prejudice if you are another religion, because all religions have a way to lead to the one god. for instance, hinduism has many gods, but they believe that they are all the incarnation of the the one god that is the creator. and by the way, 9/11 was not created by god. SATAN CREATES ALL EVIL ON THIS EARTH! and i cant stress that enough. people also have an influence on evil on this earth and how it is created. if you find your own god- center, then you WILL go to heaven, as long as you only do good, and no evil.

My largest question is merely how is evil defined?

I'm very much Buddhist(Going to go study at a monastery for university, woohoo!), with Taoist and Confucianist tied in there somewhere too. I'd say that if you really got down to it, Buddhism is just a guide to how minds work, Taoism is just a guide to how the universe works, and Confucianism just a guide to how society works. Being that I base my conworlds off the same basic patterns that govern the universe we are in, and I'd doubt a universe could exist that did not exhibit those same patterns, it is a Taoist conworld. Being that life almost certainly wouldn't be able to evolve without the will to live(the basis of the Buddhist guides to the mind)(elsewise anything with conciousness yet not the will to live would go extinct and not spread it's gene's for lack of will to live), it is a Buddhist conworld. And, provided there is a will to live, the same tendancies governing a government here would be the same ones to govern there, so it is also a Confucian conworld.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
langover94



Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 509
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'd say that i define evil as awful things done towards other people (i.e. killing, cursing, etc.), bad intent or wishing a person harm, war, hunger, possesion, demons, and a lot more which i probably cant think of right now.
_________________
Join us at: The Renewed Spirits Forum!
Please join for good discussion. (We need members!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dhanus
Admin


Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 193

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm an atheist, but I do have my own beliefs.

1. There is someone (spirit, a relative that has passed on, etc.) who is guiding you through life.

2. I believe we evolved from monkeys!

3. I believe there is an afterlife of some sort, or you get reincarnated.

4. I believe death is just the finish of the 1st (could even be 400047865389275th) chapter of your life.

And there might be some more, but I can't think of them right now.

A lot of these beliefs, though, go into the religion I created, Fala, for my people, the Agishians.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eldin raigmore
Admin


Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 1621
Location: SouthEast Michigan

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Moved from another thread.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

langover94 wrote:
i respect your beliefs, but what makes you think that a spirit in non-human form cant experience anything? (that question was for elidin ragimore)
That wasn't about what I believe (I personally don't believe a soul can even exist except in a living body); it was about what I'll be comfortable with anyone else believing.

The idea that there is an eternal rewarding afterlife (Heaven), and an omniscient Judge who can correctly decide who goes there and who doesn't, leads to the philosophy expressed in the 16th and 17th centuries as "Kill them all; God will sort them out", and the sort of thinking that justified slamming passenger airliners into the World Trade Center.

I don't have a problem with people thinking there's a life after death provided;
  • they don't think it's in another world.
  • they don't think it can be a reward nor a punishment.
If a spirit between incarnations can't experience anything, in particular it can't experience reward or punishment.

I personally believe it likely the universe was created. If so it was probably created for some reason. If so it's likely that reason involved the existence of life. If so it's likely that intelligent life was wanted. However I don't think there's any evidence the Creator (who might not qualify as God by some peoples' definitions, but might by others) is interested in any particular individual human being; there's not even proof It is interested in any single intelligent species (though if there's only one intelligent species, I suppose It must be interested in them.). Also I don't think there's convincing evidence (yet) that the Creator is still hanging around keeping an eye on things and occasionally intervening.

If there is a Creator, there is absolutely no chance It has any correct notions about ethics between equals or towards superiors; It can't have had any practice at that. So It may be "benevolent", but It can't be the Author of Good and Right and Justice and Virtue and all that. Perhaps one of the reasons It created the universe was so the intelligent species therein could discover ethics for It.

I don't have any problem with people who believe that the Creator is still managing the Universe, even micro-managing it with relationships to individual human beings. But to believe that It can correctly judge who should live in eternal bliss and who should not -- I don't want people to believe that; that belief is evil.

In my conworld and conculture of Adpihi, nearly everyone believes that God has a personal relationship with them. Almost all of them just assume that everyone's God is the same as everyone else's God. But they don't assume God's commandments to one person would necessarily be the same as His commandments to another person.

The major historical event I intend to cover in that world involves the rise of several multi-believer religions who believe that believing in a wrong (that is, in any other) religion is evil and that misbelievers should be punished or killed; and that God knows who is good and who is evil and will see to it that the good will be rewarded with an eternal afterlife and the evil will not be so rewarded. They'll cause a world war; the reaction to that war will be the first-ever legislation against certain religions in Adpihi, namely that it's illegal to preach a religion having all of the ideas I was against, above.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@langover: If you don't think God is a judge, then chances are I'd be comfortable with lots of people having your conception of God. If you think He's the Author of morality, I disagree with you, but I'd still be fine with you believing that; I figure many, if not most, of my fictional conpeople (the Adpihi) believe that too.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
langover94



Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 509
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i do think that he's the author of morality =) because if he wasnt, then where else would it come from? how else would humans ever have had just and equal thoughts? and god layed it down all in one simple list called the "10 commandments".
_________________
Join us at: The Renewed Spirits Forum!
Please join for good discussion. (We need members!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eldin raigmore
Admin


Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 1621
Location: SouthEast Michigan

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think morality, justice, right, etc. are all human inventions. I think humans have the right to judge God but not the other way 'round.

On the other hand, a charitable attitude towards God that I would accept, would be that of course He knows nothing about morality toward equals or superiors; when has He ever had a chance to practice it?

As for evil coming from Satan instead of from God, that's like saying America's missteps in the Iraq war are the fault of Rumsfeld but not of Bush.

Who created Satan? Who could control him if He wanted to?

Obviously everything Satan does is God's fault.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
langover94



Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 509
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
I think morality, justice, right, etc. are all human inventions. I think humans have the right to judge God but not the other way 'round.

On the other hand, a charitable attitude towards God that I would accept, would be that of course He knows nothing about morality toward equals or superiors; when has He ever had a chance to practice it?

As for evil coming from Satan instead of from God, that's like saying America's missteps in the Iraq war are the fault of Rumsfeld but not of Bush.

Who created Satan? Who could control him if He wanted to?

Obviously everything Satan does is God's fault.


that's absolutely wrong. if humans are the creators of morality, then who showed them the way?? **GOD**!!!! and how many times do i have to say GOD IS NOT A JUDGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! god doesnt judge us, so why then do we have the right to judge him?? he is the creator, and we are his followers. we do not have the right to tell him what to do, otherwise then he WOULD be evil, because human kind has clearly been influenced by the devil. as for god practicing morality, he does it all the time. he answers prayers. he controls all good in the world. what is more moral than that????????? as for who created satan, he is a fallen angel, so technically god DID create him. but, he wanted to challenge god, and he wanted to be his own god, and he did not want to be with the real god. god loved him so much, that he granted his wishes, and made a place called hell for him. god could be the controller of him if he wanted to, but god doesnt like to mess with free will. god still hopes that satan lucifer will still come back to him and see the light. but it is not god's fault that satan is evil, so satans deeds are also not his fault. satan does everything of his own accord, and god cant mess with free will.
_________________
Join us at: The Renewed Spirits Forum!
Please join for good discussion. (We need members!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
halyihev



Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 175
Location: Vermont, New England / Vrïtálá Kritsensá, Álurhná

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
I think morality, justice, right, etc. are all human inventions. I think humans have the right to judge God but not the other way 'round.


Wouldn't that be backwards, though? If God is the creator of the Universe, and the all-powerful transcendent entity that we normally mean when talking about God, then it hardly seems fair that beings created by that God would be the ones who had the right to judge Him, rather than the other way around. It would be like you creating a painting, and you have no right to tell the painting whether you think it's beautiful or not, but the painting has every right to tell you whether or not YOU have any beauty.

eldin raigmore wrote:
On the other hand, a charitable attitude towards God that I would accept, would be that of course He knows nothing about morality toward equals or superiors; when has He ever had a chance to practice it?


If we're talking about the transcendent, all-powerful God of the Universe here, exactly *who* would we be thinking would qualify as equals or superiors?

eldin raigmore wrote:
As for evil coming from Satan instead of from God, that's like saying America's missteps in the Iraq war are the fault of Rumsfeld but not of Bush.

Who created Satan? Who could control him if He wanted to?

Obviously everything Satan does is God's fault.


That would mean Satan is nothing but an automaton. Like saying that if you go tease or bully someone, it's not your fault but God's fault because after all, He could stop you but doesn't.

If you give a gift of free will, you can't just dump the whole concept the first time anyone does something you don't like.

I'll be honest, I don't understand the whole thing. As I shared in another thread, I'm aching right now for the loss of a beloved pet, which may seem a small thing to some but has completely broken my heart. And I sometimes feel like the prayers I'm saying, begging for his return, go about as far as the ceiling. And, I know a whole lot of people in the world are suffering incredibly more than I am for a whole lot of reasons. By comparison I know my own pain is almost embarrassingly minor. (Which isn't to say it's not excruciatingly painful to me at this moment!)

But I do know that all the evils of the Universe cannot simply be conveniently laid at God's doorstep.
_________________
Dwirze ghárìlen ershónyá áqálán.

Álurhsá Ólevár/Alurhsa Website: http://alurhsa.org
Sehályensá Víláren/Bilingual Blog: http://blog.alurhsa.org
Álurhsá Ásálqáren/Alurhsa Board: http://forum.alurhsa.org
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
langover94



Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 509
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

halyihev, i think that you are exactly right once again, and i completely and totally agree. eldin raigmore, have you ever read ANY spiritual texts before? because if you did, you would see that they would all share this concept.
_________________
Join us at: The Renewed Spirits Forum!
Please join for good discussion. (We need members!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eldin raigmore
Admin


Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 1621
Location: SouthEast Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

langover94 wrote:
eldin raigmore, have you ever read ANY spiritual texts before? because if you did, you would see that they would all share this concept.
People here before you, and Halyihev more than others, know that I have; take a look at the various translation challenges I've submitted. There were more, but I deleted the ones no-one translated. (You translated the "One bright day, late at night ..." one? I submitted that to replace the verse of "O For a Thousand Tongues to Sing" that went: "Hear Him, ye deaf! His praise, ye dumb, your loosened tongues employ! Ye blind, behold your Savior come! And leap, ye lame, for joy!", which only Halyihev translated.)
Reading is not believing. I did believe; now I don't. The questions Halyihev is asking himself, I asked myself; eventually I answered them "No".

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

halyihev wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
I think morality, justice, right, etc. are all human inventions. I think humans have the right to judge God but not the other way 'round.
Wouldn't that be backwards, though? If God is the creator of the Universe, and the all-powerful transcendent entity that we normally mean when talking about God, then it hardly seems fair that beings created by that God would be the ones who had the right to judge Him, rather than the other way around. It would be like you creating a painting, and you have no right to tell the painting whether you think it's beautiful or not, but the painting has every right to tell you whether or not YOU have any beauty.
The reason your analogy doesn't convince me is that in order to create the painting I have to have an idea of beauty. I do not believe God has any idea of morality; therefore we should cut Him some slack when we judge Him, but He can't judge us at all.

halyihev wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
On the other hand, a charitable attitude towards God that I would accept, would be that of course He knows nothing about morality toward equals or superiors; when has He ever had a chance to practice it?
If we're talking about the transcendent, all-powerful God of the Universe here, exactly *who* would we be thinking would qualify as equals or superiors?
Exactly.

halyihev wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
As for evil coming from Satan instead of from God, that's like saying America's missteps in the Iraq war are the fault of Rumsfeld but not of Bush.
Who created Satan? Who could control him if He wanted to?
Obviously everything Satan does is God's fault.
That would mean Satan is nothing but an automaton. Like saying that if you go tease or bully someone, it's not your fault but God's fault because after all, He could stop you but doesn't. If you give a gift of free will, you can't just dump the whole concept the first time anyone does something you don't like.
So God is still holding out hope for Satan's redemption? Satan (and his angels) is(are) just as important to God as humans are?

halyihev wrote:
I'll be honest, I don't understand the whole thing.
It's a tough one; it's a classic, millenia-old philosophical question. My earlier quote was from an ancient Greek; I think it was probably from before the rise of the Roman Empire, maybe around Alexander's time.
Quote:
If God is willing to abolish evil, but unable, He is not omnipotent.
If He is able, but unwilling, He is malevolent.
If He is willing and able, whence cometh evil?
If He is unwilling and unable, why call Him "God"?


halyihev wrote:
As I shared in another thread, I'm aching right now for the loss of a beloved pet, which may seem a small thing to some but has completely broken my heart. And I sometimes feel like the prayers I'm saying, begging for his return, go about as far as the ceiling. And, I know a whole lot of people in the world are suffering incredibly more than I am for a whole lot of reasons. By comparison I know my own pain is almost embarrassingly minor. (Which isn't to say it's not excruciatingly painful to me at this moment!)
When I went through my first divorce and the loss of my first job, seeing I had been a faithful husband and a good employee but men I knew were adulterers and not good workers stayed married and employed, I found that I was much less angry if I decided God wasn't there. If God was there, then He was not doing a good job; I was prepared for the rain to fall on the just and the unjust alike, and for the sun to shine on the just and the unjust alike; and of course, I was prepared for the rain to fall on the unjust and the sun to shine on the just; but I was not able to swallow the rain falling on the just and the sun shining on the unjust. But if God was not there, there was nobody to be angry at. It was healthier for me to not believe in God, so I quit.

halyihev wrote:
But I do know that all the evils of the Universe cannot simply be conveniently laid at God's doorstep.
If not His, whose? He takes all the credit for the good; shouldn't He also take the blame for the evil? (Of course, to one who doesn't believe in God the way He's traditionally described or defined, good and evil have nothing to do with God.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

langover94 wrote:
If humans are the creators of morality, then who showed them the way??
Nobody. They invented it themselves.

langover94 wrote:
God doesnt judge us,
As I've said I'm more comfortable with such an idea of God than one of God as final judge. (I don't know if you've read that post.)

langover94 wrote:
so why then do we have the right to judge Him??
(1) Why not? (2) I'm saying we have the right; I'm not saying we should necessarily exercise that right.

langover94 wrote:
He is the Creator, and we are His followers.
So should a human always and forever obey his/her parent(s) in all things? Just because God made me doesn't make it necessarily a good idea for me to conform my purposes to His. A steer raised for beef or a calf raised for veal is in many ways mostly the rancher's creature, but that doesn't mean that it's morally obligated to allow itself to be slaughtered.

langover94 wrote:
we do not have the right to tell Him what to do,
I never said we do. I said we have the right to judge His actions as more or less moral, right, good, just, etc. or immoral, wrong, evil, unjust, etc.

langover94 wrote:
otherwise then He WOULD be evil, because human kind has clearly been influenced by the devil.
Your conclusion
Quote:
otherwise then He WOULD be evil,
just doesn't follow at all from your hypothesis
Quote:
because human kind has clearly been influenced by the devil.
; and the hypothesis itself is presented without evidence. Why do you believe there is a devil at all? If there is one, why do you believe humanity has been influenced by one?

langover94 wrote:
as for God practicing morality, He does it all the time. He answers prayers. He controls all good in the world. what is more moral than that?????????
Then why is there evil?

langover94 wrote:
as for who created Satan, he is a fallen angel, so technically God DID create him. but, he wanted to challenge God, and he wanted to be his own god, and he did not want to be with the real God.
What makes you believe that?

langover94 wrote:
God loved him so much, that He granted his wishes, and made a place called hell for him.
If so, that's an extremely weak justification for God to create Hell. That would make God like the guards and interrogators at Abu-Ghraib.

langover94 wrote:
God could be the controller of him if He wanted to, but God doesnt like to mess with free will. God still hopes that Satan Lucifer will still come back to Him and see the light.
(1) So Satan is just as important, or more so, to God than we are?
(2) Why can't God arrange that to be between Him and Satan, and leave us out of it? Why does God allow Satan to mess around with us? In Job, God allowed Satan to kill an entire family just to settle a bet with Satan; if you believe in Biblical inerrancy (I don't) I need search no further to find proof that God is evil.

langover94 wrote:
But it is not God's fault that Satan is evil,
Yes it is. Why isn't it?

langover94 wrote:
so Satan's deeds are also not His(God's) fault.
Yes they are. Why aren't they?

langover94 wrote:
God can't mess with free will.
So He's not Almighty then, is He? So why call Him "God"?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
halyihev



Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 175
Location: Vermont, New England / Vrïtálá Kritsensá, Álurhná

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
langover94 wrote:
eldin raigmore, have you ever read ANY spiritual texts before? because if you did, you would see that they would all share this concept.
People here before you, and Halyihev more than others, know that I have; take a look at the various translation challenges I've submitted. There were more, but I deleted the ones no-one translated. (You translated the "One bright day, late at night ..." one? I submitted that to replace the verse of "O For a Thousand Tongues to Sing" that went: "Hear Him, ye deaf! His praise, ye dumb, your loosened tongues employ! Ye blind, behold your Savior come! And leap, ye lame, for joy!", which only Halyihev translated.)
Reading is not believing. I did believe; now I don't. The questions Halyihev is asking himself, I asked myself; eventually I answered them "No".


Indeed, eldin, you and I have shared much conversation on this. So I don't doubt that you've read, and thought, a great deal about it.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

eldin raigmore wrote:
halyihev wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
I think morality, justice, right, etc. are all human inventions. I think humans have the right to judge God but not the other way 'round.
Wouldn't that be backwards, though? If God is the creator of the Universe, and the all-powerful transcendent entity that we normally mean when talking about God, then it hardly seems fair that beings created by that God would be the ones who had the right to judge Him, rather than the other way around. It would be like you creating a painting, and you have no right to tell the painting whether you think it's beautiful or not, but the painting has every right to tell you whether or not YOU have any beauty.
The reason your analogy doesn't convince me is that in order to create the painting I have to have an idea of beauty. I do not believe God has any idea of morality; therefore we should cut Him some slack when we judge Him, but He can't judge us at all.


If you are creating the painting, though, you are the one *determining* the beauty, not the painting. This means the painting, as your creation, is living under your rules. Is it right for the painting to then say "You have no right to determine the rules of beauty, but I, as your creation, have that right, and declare you to be ugly"?


eldin raigmore wrote:
halyihev wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
On the other hand, a charitable attitude towards God that I would accept, would be that of course He knows nothing about morality toward equals or superiors; when has He ever had a chance to practice it?
If we're talking about the transcendent, all-powerful God of the Universe here, exactly *who* would we be thinking would qualify as equals or superiors?
Exactly.


But again, if God is the creator, and is setting down standards for morality, then does it matter that he has no one *above* Him to practice them with?

Of course from a Christian point of view, I would argue that Jesus did, in fact, demonstrate exactly the "correct" morality towards equals or superiors.

eldin raigmore wrote:
halyihev wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
As for evil coming from Satan instead of from God, that's like saying America's missteps in the Iraq war are the fault of Rumsfeld but not of Bush.
Who created Satan? Who could control him if He wanted to?
Obviously everything Satan does is God's fault.
That would mean Satan is nothing but an automaton. Like saying that if you go tease or bully someone, it's not your fault but God's fault because after all, He could stop you but doesn't. If you give a gift of free will, you can't just dump the whole concept the first time anyone does something you don't like.
So God is still holding out hope for Satan's redemption? Satan (and his angels) is(are) just as important to God as humans are?


Not sure I have an answer on whether Satan can be redeemed or not, but yes, I would say that the angels *are* as important to God as humans. They are sentient life with an eternal spirit, are they not? Why is it that we humans always want to think of ourselves as being God's only children, the only life forms God has any interest in?


eldin raigmore wrote:
halyihev wrote:
I'll be honest, I don't understand the whole thing.
It's a tough one; it's a classic, millenia-old philosophical question. My earlier quote was from an ancient Greek; I think it was probably from before the rise of the Roman Empire, maybe around Alexander's time.
Quote:
If God is willing to abolish evil, but unable, He is not omnipotent.
If He is able, but unwilling, He is malevolent.
If He is willing and able, whence cometh evil?
If He is unwilling and unable, why call Him "God"?


What I meant was more that I don't understand all the ins and outs of God's ways, the Universe, life, etc. I do very much understand where you're coming from on all this.

I think the answer to the riddle is "God is willing and able, BUT has committed to allowing us to try it our way, at least for a time. This is free will, which is a gift given to all of God's creations. And, if you choose to remove free will at the first sign of something you know is wrong, then it can hardly be called free will.

eldin raigmore wrote:
halyihev wrote:
As I shared in another thread, I'm aching right now for the loss of a beloved pet, which may seem a small thing to some but has completely broken my heart. And I sometimes feel like the prayers I'm saying, begging for his return, go about as far as the ceiling. And, I know a whole lot of people in the world are suffering incredibly more than I am for a whole lot of reasons. By comparison I know my own pain is almost embarrassingly minor. (Which isn't to say it's not excruciatingly painful to me at this moment!)
When I went through my first divorce and the loss of my first job, seeing I had been a faithful husband and a good employee but men I knew were adulterers and not good workers stayed married and employed, I found that I was much less angry if I decided God wasn't there. If God was there, then He was not doing a good job; I was prepared for the rain to fall on the just and the unjust alike, and for the sun to shine on the just and the unjust alike; and of course, I was prepared for the rain to fall on the unjust and the sun to shine on the just; but I was not able to swallow the rain falling on the just and the sun shining on the unjust. But if God was not there, there was nobody to be angry at. It was healthier for me to not believe in God, so I quit.


You had shared your sorrow with me before, and I do sympathize. Your situation is one of those that I was referring to when I said my own pain at "simply" losing a pet seems so minor when I compare it to the suffering of others. And I do very much understand how it can seem so much easier to just say there is no God. The books of Job and Ecclesiastes come to mind, since Job suffered much for no apparent reason, and the preacher in Ecclesiastes starts at the point of "Why bother, it's all meaningless".

eldin raigmore wrote:
halyihev wrote:
But I do know that all the evils of the Universe cannot simply be conveniently laid at God's doorstep.
If not His, whose? He takes all the credit for the good; shouldn't He also take the blame for the evil? (Of course, to one who doesn't believe in God the way He's traditionally described or defined, good and evil have nothing to do with God.)


Perhaps the answer to why so much evil lies not in our stars or our gods, but in ourselves. The Universe is a fallen, corrupt place, filled with darkness and evil. It does seem that God should just speak the word and make it all right, but that denies to its inhabitants the gift of free will. And perhaps when all is said and done, none of us would truly accept that it has to ultimately work God's way unless there is no question that we've had full opportunity to try it our own way first. I imagine many of us have had children like that. For that matter, most of us have probably *been* children like that ourselves, at least sometimes.
eldin raigmore wrote:
langover94 wrote:
He is the Creator, and we are His followers.
So should a human always and forever obey his/her parent(s) in all things? Just because God made me doesn't make it necessarily a good idea for me to conform my purposes to His. A steer raised for beef or a calf raised for veal is in many ways mostly the rancher's creature, but that doesn't mean that it's morally obligated to allow itself to be slaughtered.


There is somewhat of a difference between raising a cow and creating a Universe, of course. But what you're essentially saying is, ok, even if God created us, He did that and now we have the right to ignore Him and set ourselves up as the authority on Truth, Morality, Right & Wrong, etc.

Running with that for a moment, let me propose that we only have the right to do that once we're as advanced in knowledge and understanding as the one we're replacing. Rather the way that you don't take a toddler and agree that the toddler has the right to drive a car, because you know that toddler does not have the knowledge or ability to do so.

At what point do you believe the human race (or any other race of beings) is "ready"to take over godhood of the Universe? When does humanity, who cannot see all of Time and Space, reach the knowledge and understanding to be able to really judge rightly the actions of a being who *does* see all of Time and Space, *does* have full knowledge and understanding?

eldin raigmore wrote:
langover94 wrote:
we do not have the right to tell Him what to do,
I never said we do. I said we have the right to judge His actions as more or less moral, right, good, just, etc. or immoral, wrong, evil, unjust, etc.


To have that right, don't we have to have the full picture? Just as to judge someone in court, all the available evidence must be presented and understood, so we would have to have *all* the factors that God weighs in order to judge his actions. We can form opinions now based on what we see, but we have to acknowledge that there is a great deal that is simply beyond our knowledge and understanding now, that could easily change the whole picture.

eldin raigmore wrote:
langover94 wrote:
otherwise then He WOULD be evil, because human kind has clearly been influenced by the devil.
Your conclusion
Quote:
otherwise then He WOULD be evil,
just doesn't follow at all from your hypothesis
Quote:
because human kind has clearly been influenced by the devil.
; and the hypothesis itself is presented without evidence. Why do you believe there is a devil at all? If there is one, why do you believe humanity has been influenced by one?


I'll confess that "influenced by the devil" is, in my opinion, an overused statement. In the Genesis account, the initial nudge might have been from the serpent, but the willingness to give in to that nudge was all inside Adam and Eve. Humanity has plenty of evil in itself.

And no, I don't mean they were *created* evil. They were created free, free to choose the road they would take. They could just as easily have chosen the other way, they simply did not. In a sense, although it would be very difficult with 6.5 billion people, the same is true today. All of humanity could decide "I will not kill or hurt today", and eliminate a huge swath of the evil. For that matter, we can do that individually, and eliminate at least some piece of the evil in our corner of the world.

eldin raigmore wrote:
langover94 wrote:
as for who created Satan, he is a fallen angel, so technically God DID create him. but, he wanted to challenge God, and he wanted to be his own god, and he did not want to be with the real God.
What makes you believe that?


I believe the quote from Milton applies here. "'Tis better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven." Free will, personal choice.

eldin raigmore wrote:
langover94 wrote:
God loved him so much, that He granted his wishes, and made a place called hell for him.
If so, that's an extremely weak justification for God to create Hell. That would make God like the guards and interrogators at Abu-Ghraib.


I have a different opinion of Hell, I guess. I tend to see it as created and maintained by the evil in the hearts of those who end up there, which they do by their own choices. It's not standard Christian doctrine, but have a look at the movie "What Dreams May Come", which deals interestingly with the topic.

eldin raigmore wrote:
langover94 wrote:
God can't mess with free will.
So He's not Almighty then, is He? So why call Him "God"?


I think the verb there is God *won't* mess with free will, not *can't*. If God intervened every time free will caused something undesirable, it would hardly be free will, would it?

And yes, that means the Universe is a horrible, evil, dark place. But essentially, no more horrible, evil, or dark than a Universe you describe where God either doesn't exist or wound it up and left it to its own devices. The difference is, I see a Universe where God allows a lot of leeway, but will, from time to time, intervene for reasons I don't really understand, and where ultimately the good and true will triumph.
_________________
Dwirze ghárìlen ershónyá áqálán.

Álurhsá Ólevár/Alurhsa Website: http://alurhsa.org
Sehályensá Víláren/Bilingual Blog: http://blog.alurhsa.org
Álurhsá Ásálqáren/Alurhsa Board: http://forum.alurhsa.org
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
langover94



Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 509
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

langover94 wrote:
If humans are the creators of morality, then who showed them the way??
eldin raigmore wrote:
Nobody. They invented it themselves.

you are stubborn in this thinking. do you have any proof? i dont think so.

langover94 wrote:
God doesnt judge us,
eldin raigmore wrote:
As I've said I'm more comfortable with such an idea of God than one of God as final judge. (I don't know if you've read that post.)

GOD IS NOT A JUDGE!!!!!!!!! GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!!! HE IS NOT A JUDGE OF ANY KIND!!! NOT EVEN THE END ONE!!!!

langover94 wrote:
so why then do we have the right to judge Him??
eldin raigmore wrote:
(1) Why not? (2) I'm saying we have the right; I'm not saying we should necessarily exercise that right.

(1) because he is the creator, and we are his followers.
(2) we should not have the right at all.

langover94 wrote:
He is the Creator, and we are His followers.
eldin raigmore wrote:
So should a human always and forever obey his/her parent(s) in all things? Just because God made me doesn't make it necessarily a good idea for me to conform my purposes to His. A steer raised for beef or a calf raised for veal is in many ways mostly the rancher's creature, but that doesn't mean that it's morally obligated to allow itself to be slaughtered.

i'm not saying that. those animals dont have a choice. but if you wanna turn away from the morality which god created, he says, be his guest. but you will not be happy with it later, because it was YOUR choice to turn away from the rules. just like in a kindergarten classroom, if you disobey the rules without the teacher seeing, then you can, but you will most likely be put in a "time out" later.

langover94 wrote:
we do not have the right to tell Him what to do,
eldin raigmore wrote:
I never said we do. I said we have the right to judge His actions as more or less moral, right, good, just, etc. or immoral, wrong, evil, unjust, etc.

if his views are always moral, then why should we judge them? SATAN is the one that you should be judging.

eldin raigmore wrote:
langover94 wrote:
otherwise then He WOULD be evil, because human kind has clearly been influenced by the devil.
Your conclusion
Quote:
otherwise then He WOULD be evil,
just doesn't follow at all from your hypothesis
Quote:
because human kind has clearly been influenced by the devil.
; and the hypothesis itself is presented without evidence. Why do you believe there is a devil at all? If there is one, why do you believe humanity has been influenced by one?

well if human kind was perfect, (which we were before adam and eve ate the forbidden fruit) then we would be god. but when they ate the forbidden fruit, they were tempeted by satan, which brought original sin into the world. so human kind WAS influenced by satan, from about the 9th day in the garden of eden, on.

langover94 wrote:
as for God practicing morality, He does it all the time. He answers prayers. He controls all good in the world. what is more moral than that?????????
eldin raigmore wrote:
Then why is there evil?

again, you are being quite stubborn. SATAN!!!

langover94 wrote:
as for who created Satan, he is a fallen angel, so technically God DID create him. but, he wanted to challenge God, and he wanted to be his own god, and he did not want to be with the real God.
[quote="eldin raigmore"]What makes you believe that?
uhhhhh, lets see. the bible, the koran, and the torah. that good enough for you?

langover94 wrote:
God loved him so much, that He granted his wishes, and made a place called hell for him.
eldin raigmore wrote:
If so, that's an extremely weak justification for God to create Hell. That would make God like the guards and interrogators at Abu-Ghraib.

he did not create hell with the intention of evil. satan simply wished for a place that he could do what he wanted. by doing what he wanted, he MADE hell evil!

langover94 wrote:
God could be the controller of him if He wanted to, but God doesnt like to mess with free will. God still hopes that Satan Lucifer will still come back to Him and see the light.
eldin raigmore wrote:
(1) So Satan is just as important, or more so, to God than we are?
(2) Why can't God arrange that to be between Him and Satan, and leave us out of it? Why does God allow Satan to mess around with us? In Job, God allowed Satan to kill an entire family just to settle a bet with Satan; if you believe in Biblical inerrancy (I don't) I need search no further to find proof that God is evil.

(1) god sees all things as equal, so yes. satan is just as important to him as we are, however, satan does not think that god is the leader. therefore god does not answer to him. its just the same as you saying that you judge god, and not the other way around. do you really think that god will pay attention to you if you think that? he grants your wishes for you to be without him, so he is still watching over you, but he will not be "catering to you" so to speak.
(2) first of all, GOD CANT MESS WITH FREE WILL!!! and second, in the book of job, god wants to test jobe to see if he will be faithful to him. he was not faithful, so he ultimately blamed god for his suffering (which is what you are doing right at this very moment). as a result, god has to keep his promises, which is why he had to kill a whole family.

langover94 wrote:
But it is not God's fault that Satan is evil,
eldin raigmore wrote:
Yes it is. Why isn't it?

satan does things of his own accord. satan does whatever he wants. it is his fault, and HE KNOWS THAT!! it is definitely not god's fault.


langover94 wrote:
so Satan's deeds are also not His(God's) fault.
eldin raigmore wrote:
Yes they are. Why aren't they?

i give the same answer as above.

langover94 wrote:
God can't mess with free will.
eldin raigmore wrote:
He's not Almighty then, is He? So why call Him "God"?

because he can intervene if he wants to.

i see only stubborness in ALL of your thinking about god. i have that to say, for now.
_________________
Join us at: The Renewed Spirits Forum!
Please join for good discussion. (We need members!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
halyihev



Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 175
Location: Vermont, New England / Vrïtálá Kritsensá, Álurhná

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

langover94 wrote:
GOD IS NOT A JUDGE!!!!!!!!! GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!!! HE IS NOT A JUDGE OF ANY KIND!!! NOT EVEN THE END ONE!!!!


langover94 wrote:
i see only stubborness in ALL of your thinking about god. i have that to say, for now.


At the risk of causing a problem, might I suggest that we need to be calm and rational in this discussion, if it's going to continue. Let us have respect for one another, and present our thoughts and feelings without slipping into frustration.
_________________
Dwirze ghárìlen ershónyá áqálán.

Álurhsá Ólevár/Alurhsa Website: http://alurhsa.org
Sehályensá Víláren/Bilingual Blog: http://blog.alurhsa.org
Álurhsá Ásálqáren/Alurhsa Board: http://forum.alurhsa.org
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
StrangeMagic
Admin


Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 637

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, please stay calm and discuss this sensibly. I understand that everyone has their own ideas and sometimes there is just no proof.

Langover, please also remember that not everyone on the board believes in God.

And I don't even believe Satan exists, I believe we exercise our own evil which will return to us threefold eventually.

Also, (this is probably a more philosophical question), can we truly appreciate good if there isn't evil? So does that mean that evil needs to exist. For example, if everything was good, what would be the difference and what would be the point of having the action of 'good'? To me, I think we need to have evil in the world to truly appreciate the good and vice versa.

And again, please refrain from nastiness.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
halyihev



Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 175
Location: Vermont, New England / Vrïtálá Kritsensá, Álurhná

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StrangeMagic wrote:
Also, (this is probably a more philosophical question), can we truly appreciate good if there isn't evil? So does that mean that evil needs to exist. For example, if everything was good, what would be the difference and what would be the point of having the action of 'good'? To me, I think we need to have evil in the world to truly appreciate the good and vice versa.


That's somewhat of a Zoroastrian position, I think. Zoroasterian scriptures do take a very dualistic view of the Universe, where Good and Evil are opposite sides of the same coin, so to speak.

From a more Christian perspective, the *knowledge* of Good and Evil is something that apparently existed before the whole Garden of Eden exile event, since there was a tree in the midst of the garden that was called that.

It is also possible, of course, that knowledge of good and evil was more the result of disobeying the command, rather than anything to do with the fruit. In the same way that we "lose our innocence and our eyes are opened" when we engage in some particular evil, and we are never quite the same again.
_________________
Dwirze ghárìlen ershónyá áqálán.

Álurhsá Ólevár/Alurhsa Website: http://alurhsa.org
Sehályensá Víláren/Bilingual Blog: http://blog.alurhsa.org
Álurhsá Ásálqáren/Alurhsa Board: http://forum.alurhsa.org
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tsulaokiw



Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(B=¬A)∧(A=⊤)⇒(A⇒B)∧(¬A⇒B)∧(B=B)⇒A=∅
(This only axiom this relies on(non-technically speaking) is that a god would be impossible to disprove.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
halyihev



Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 175
Location: Vermont, New England / Vrïtálá Kritsensá, Álurhná

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tsulaokiw wrote:
(B=¬A)∧(A=⊤)⇒(A⇒B)∧(¬A⇒B)∧(B=B)⇒A=∅
(This only axiom this relies on(non-technically speaking) is that a god would be impossible to disprove.)



Shocked

Alas, mathematics, or even logic expressed as mathematical equations, is far from my forte.
_________________
Dwirze ghárìlen ershónyá áqálán.

Álurhsá Ólevár/Alurhsa Website: http://alurhsa.org
Sehályensá Víláren/Bilingual Blog: http://blog.alurhsa.org
Álurhsá Ásálqáren/Alurhsa Board: http://forum.alurhsa.org
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Vreleksá Forum Index -> Conreligion and Conphilosophy
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 2 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Theme ACID © 2003 par HEDONISM Web Hosting Directory


Start Your Own Video Sharing Site

Free Web Hosting | Free Forum Hosting | FlashWebHost.com | Image Hosting | Photo Gallery | FreeMarriage.com

Powered by PhpBBweb.com, setup your forum now!
For Support, visit Forums.BizHat.com