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Conlang Peculiarities
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Kiri



Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Posts: 471
Location: Latvia/Italy

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
Now that is confusing. Wow. I think I understand it though.


I just understood that really the only way to fix this is to make some irregular adjective-noun-thingies (is there such a term!? Very Happy ). That would be the first Very Happy

My recource
Google ---> define: *whateverthethermis*

What's the use of having more than singular or plural? I mean, practically. ?
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Aeetlrcreejl



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose if you wanted to be more specific about things other numbers would be used. The dual wouldn't get used much, but the paucal would probably get used more - Proto-Jinnic's dual evolved later into a paucal.
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Aeetl: Now there's an interesting idea. I like it, I'll see how it works out.

Kiri wrote:
I just understood that really the only way to fix this is to make some irregular adjective-noun-thingies (is there such a term!? Very Happy ). That would be the first Very Happy

Good enough a term for me ^_^

Quote:
What's the use of having more than singular or plural? I mean, practically. ?


More specification in less space / with less words. With PKM I'm going for as few words that aren't nouns or verb/adjectives (there really isn't much distinction) as possible. That way I don't have to say 'all men', I can just say 'man-all'.

Edit: Wow, I actually got cross-posted.
Edit2: BTW, Kiri, what gender are you? It's always nice to know. (I'm 男)
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, thank you for the explanation. I see, this place is going to teach me a lot of lingvo-stuff in a short period of time! Very Happy
And yes, I can see how a paucal and an all-number form could be useful, but I think, there is also a point, where you wouldn't want to be too specific. I mean, when you don't want to stress the number or smth like that - make another case for that too!? (would be funny actually) But in that case you would stress that you aren't stressing (if you know what I mean Very Happy )

TF, me too.
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Tolkien_Freak



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
Oh, thank you for the explanation. I see, this place is going to teach me a lot of lingvo-stuff in a short period of time! Very Happy
And yes, I can see how a paucal and an all-number form could be useful, but I think, there is also a point, where you wouldn't want to be too specific. I mean, when you don't want to stress the number or smth like that - make another case for that too!? (would be funny actually) But in that case you would stress that you aren't stressing (if you know what I mean Very Happy )


I thought exactly the same thing, so PKM and Emitare have their default affix-less number mean that either the number is unspecified or simply unimportant. It doesn't really stress the fact that you're not saying anything, it just removes the necessity of saying something at all about the number (like in English, you always know whether there is one of something or more than one, but in Emitare, you can avoid saying anything at all about it).
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Baldash



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
SO the case is, that "more water" is something like /an al Grand-u Flum-a/ (ART Com big-ACC water-NOM or /al an Grand-u Flum-a/ (Com ART big-ACC water-NOM/, but it looks (and sounds) weird and stupid, and I don't know what to do at this point.

I got the feeling from the examples that "al" means in fact "more", and "alle" means "most"... Does "an al fluma" makes sense to you? Or maybe they are adverbs or particles that can only modify adjectives and perhaps other adverbs?

Kiri wrote:
adjective-noun-thingies (is there such a term!? Very Happy ).

Do you mean a hypernym to "noun" and "adjective"? I think "substantive" could be used in that sense.

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
I thought exactly the same thing, so PKM and Emitare have their default affix-less number mean that either the number is unspecified or simply unimportant. It doesn't really stress the fact that you're not saying anything, it just removes the necessity of saying something at all about the number (like in English, you always know whether there is one of something or more than one, but in Emitare, you can avoid saying anything at all about it).

Tlawyn has singular, dual, plural, and "unknown number", the last is used when the speaker doesn't know or doesn't want to tell the number for some reason, but the unmarked is singular. "Unknown number" is more salient in Tlawyn than in a language that doesn't indicate number by default, so the speakers usually use singular, dual or plural when they haven't got any reason not to (but it doesn't have to be any special reason). I have played around with having the unmarked to be "singular/dual", while having a marked "plural (at least three)", but it haven't catched on.
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"al" and "alle" are just particles that modify the adjectives/adverbs, therefore, "an al Fluma" doesn't really make any sense.
Substantive is the right term? Thank you Smile

I was thinking about this at night, and I thought, that maybe I can just create a different form for these with some suffix action, for example, the particles become suffixes.

Therefore "a bigger amount of water" would be /an Grandal Fluma/,
but, for example, "a bigger tree" would be /al grandan Rema/
does that make any sense? Very Happy
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baldash wrote:
Do you mean a hypernym to "noun" and "adjective"? I think "substantive" could be used in that sense.
No; "noun" was the correct hypernym. What we usually call "nouns" were then called "substantive nouns"; what we usually call "adjectives" were then called "adjective nouns".
nomina substantiva (independent or free-standing names)
nomina adiectiva (names that have to lean on something else)

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
Anyone's conlangs have grammatical numbers besides singular and plural? Jinnic has paucal (descended from PIE dual) and Loroae has lesser paucal and greater paucal.
Yes; Adpihi has singular, dual, trial, paucal, ordinary plural, and greater plural.

Tolkien_Freak wrote:
Quote:
What's the use of having more than singular or plural? I mean, practically. ?
More specification in less space / with less words.
Right; what T_F said.
Gender can disambiguate, as in:
"Mary took this photo of John at the house when she was ten years old."
"Mary took this photo of John at the house when he was ten years old."
"Mary took this photo of John at the house when it was ten years old."

But number can also disambiguate, as in:
"Mary took this photo of John and the boys when he was ten years old."
"Mary took this photo of John and the boys when they were ten years old."

Many languages use only singular and plural; many use singular, dual, and plural; a few don't use any grammatical number; some use more than those listed, for instance adding a trial, or a paucal, or a "greater plural".

Here's a way it could help;
Smith, the Jones twins, the Robinson quads, and the whole dozen of Brown cousins, are all trying to get on the subway. The guard wants to talk to one of them. If he says:
"Hey, you-SING!" Smith will turn around;
"Hey, you-DU!" the Joneses will turn around;
"Hey, you-PAU!" the Robinsons will turn around;
"Hey, you-PLU!" the Browns will turn around.
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Last edited by eldin raigmore on Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eldin raigmore wrote:
Baldash wrote:
Do you mean a hypernym to "noun" and "adjective"? I think "substantive" could be used in that sense.
No; "noun" was the correct hypernym. What we usually call "nouns" were then called "substantive nouns"; what we usually call "adjectives" were then called "adjective nouns".
nomina substantiva (independent or free-standing names)
nomina adiectiva (names that have to lean on something else)


Now you lost me.
What term should I use then? Very Happy
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiri wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
Baldash wrote:
Do you mean a hypernym to "noun" and "adjective"? I think "substantive" could be used in that sense.
No; "noun" was the correct hypernym. What we usually call "nouns" were then called "substantive nouns"; what we usually call "adjectives" were then called "adjective nouns".
nomina substantiva (independent or free-standing names)
nomina adiectiva (names that have to lean on something else)
Now you lost me.
What term should I use then? :D
Well, not "substantives".
I'd recommend "nouns or adjectives".
Or if you want to include pronouns, "nouns or adjectives or pronouns".
But I really don't know.

When people first started talking about nouns and adjectives, they did it in Latin, and they did it about Latin. All of them were "nomina" (names). The Latin-speaking linguists who studied Latin saw that some nomina could occur independently but other nomina could only occur as modifiers of the first kind of nomina. The first kind they called "nomina substantiva", "names that can stand under (other names)"; the second kind they called "nomina adiectiva", "names that get thrown at (other names)". You could look up those phrases on Google or on Wikipedia and find out about them.

As time went on and English-speaking (and other) writers began to write about non-Latin languages, it became convenient (especially if the writer was writing in French, for example) to use a term like "adjective" as if it were a noun instead of an adjective; they used it to mean what used to be called an "adjective noun". At the same time the term "substantive noun" was just shortened to "noun", or rather, it was seen that when anyone said "noun" they usually only meant "substantive nouns", not adjectives as well.

So, for me, "substantives" is a hypernym of "nouns and verbs", that is, things that don't modify anything but can get modified; nouns by adjectives and verbs by adverbs.

If you want a hypernym of nouns and adjectives, the historical one that was accepted for a long time is "noun". To specify whether you mean what we now call "noun", you'd have to say "substantive noun"; to specify what we now call "adjective", you'd be permitted to say "adjective noun".

If you don't like that (for which I don't blame you), then IMO there is no longer any acceptable hypernym for "nouns or adjectives" short of "word", which takes in way too much.
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you. I think I understood.
I think I will go with "exceptional nouns" or smth of that sort... Very Happy
But thank you for the explanation! I feel a little bit smarter after every day I spend here! Smile
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Wombat



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In English, you would say "Hand me a box."
In Kapsampy, you would say "Hand me one box."
Instead of saying "my" before a word, you would add the syllable for "of me" to the end of the word.

Nouns are usually the head of a word-set. I suppose it would be Noun/adjective(s)/modifier(s).
Example:
My blue ball (English)
Ball+of-blue+of-me (Kapsampy)

Not my blue ball (Eng.)
Ball+of-blue+of-me+NOT (Kaps.)
So, the "Not!" jokes that are relatively common in English would be hard in Kapsampy.

"This suit is black-NOT!"
"Suit+of-black+NOT!"
There are 7 tenses: Continuous, past, present, future are the ones we are familiar with. The other 3 are not-past, not-present, and not-future.
So it's like "When is the event?" "It's not in the past."

There are 4 genders:
Masculine, feminine, neuter, and celestial. Celestial is for things like planets, oceans, stars, mountains, ideas.. Things that are big and/or intangible.
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Hemicomputer



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aeetlrcreejl wrote:
Anyone's conlangs have grammatical numbers besides singular and plural? Jinnic has paucal (descended from PIE dual) and Loroae has lesser paucal and greater paucal.
Sun has singular, plural, and greater and lesser paucal. Drumu has dual, paucal, plural, and grater plural.
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achemel



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw that my most recently posted lang has had a good number of views already, but I thought I could put this down anyway: ra cel has a system of marking adjectives according to the noun(s) they describe, where a particle will show it as (e.g.) the third adjective of the second noun. With such markings, adjectives are free to appear anywhere in a sentence; they can all be at the beginning, if the speaker managed to think out the entire sentence beforehand, or all at the end, or mixed and mingled, or all after or before the noun(s) they go with. Also, ra cel has a kind of gossip... "tense" isn't the right word... perhaps "mood." You can easily identify gossip through set phrases which introduce such talk.

I think my language Ualaxx is pretty weird just as it is.
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Aert



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rt now has two verbs for 'to be,' not unusual in itself, but neither of them correspond to the English verb.

To be (condition) indicates an description via adjective.
To be (possession) indicates a thing being referred to through the possessive or genitive cases.
To be (action) does not exist, though in English it is used like, "I am playing;" rt skips over the verb, and simply uses the gerund.

(I may have already posted this): tense is indicated on the pronoun, although if no pronoun exists, it stands on it's own before the verb.

The reflexive suffix can be applied to either the pronoun or the verb; they are translated into the same phrase in English, but the connotation is implied more directly though which word the case is applied to. Example:

I am washing myself
1SG wash.GER.REFL
V wattoiśit

I am washing myself
1SG.REFL wash.GER
Vt wattoi

The same can be said for the instrumental cases: eg. "I fought with a sharp sword" (either using the sharpness of the blade, or the blade/fighting itself that "I" was fighting with).

The benefactive and malefactive cases can be used in leu of the adjectives they indicate (though more in colloquial language, if there were any native speakers Wink ) Example difference:

This sucks!
This MAL.EMPH
jen denaas!

This be(cond)-bad.EMPH
jen gecloiyaas!
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eldin raigmore
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aert wrote:
rt now has two verbs for 'to be,' not unusual in itself, but neither of them correspond to the English verb.

To be (condition) indicates an description via adjective.
To be (possession) indicates a thing being referred to through the possessive or genitive cases.
To me both of these sound like "predicators".
A copula has four functions; a language may not use the same copula for all four functions.
The functions are:
* "identifier"; To say that the things identified by one noun-phrase or pronoun is also identified by another noun-phrase or pronoun.
* "predicator"; To say that the things identified by a noun-phrase or pronoun has the property identified by an adjective or adjective-phrase.
* "locator"; To say that the things identified by a noun-phrase or pronoun is in (or comes from or goes to) the location identified by a locative (or ablative or allative) phrase;
* "existence marker"; To say that some thing(s) identified by a particular noun-phrase actually exist, and may be about to be discussed.

I'll assume you are using your predicators as locators as well, or that you're using one of them that way. "Possession" is often treated as "location", so maybe that's the predicator you're using as a "locator".

I'd never heard before of a natlang with a predicator for possession that was different from a predicator for every other attributive adjective; if your conlang is that way, then that does indeed strike me as quite peculiar.

Also, you've said nothing about your "identifier"-type copula, nor about your "existence-marker" type copula.

You could kill two birds with one stone by making "possession-predication" be a secondary use of the word which is primarily a "locator". Two peculiarities would be solved; (1) having two predicators instead of just one and (2) not having a locator.

English and French, and some other languages too, tend to use the "locator" as the existence-marker. When you want to say something exists you don't just say "X exists"; you point to it and say "There is an X" or "here comes an X" or "there goes an X". (Or say "there is an X" without meaning any specific spot by "there".)

French and German also use possession-related verbs as existence markers. In French one says "it there has an X" (combining "have" and "there", that is, possession and location); the "it" is non-specific and in fact non-referential, it's just thrown in because "has" has to have a subject. In German one says "It gives an X" to mean what English would say by "There is an X". The "it' is non-referential (doesn't refer to a particular donor), just as English's "there" is non-deictic (not actually referring to a particular place) when "there is ..." is used as an existence-marker.

So your predicator of possessor or genitive could easily morph into not only a locator but also an existence-marker; and if it does either it could do the other as well even more easily.

But you may still need an identity-copula.

(Note: None of these copulae has to be a verb. In fact in Russian the identity-copula, at least in 3rd-person-singular present indicative affirmative declarative, is "zero";
"Natalia hygienist" means "Natalia is a hygienist".
I don't know how you might say "You are a hygienist" or "The girls are all hygienists" or "Natalia will be a hygienist" or "Natlia would be a hygienist" or "Natalia isn't a hygienist" or "Is Natalia a hygienst?". I think there's a verb that is used for some of those. But it's 3rd-person, singular-number, present-tense, indicative-mood, affirmative-polarity, declarative form is silence -- not even a pause.)

Aert wrote:
To be (action) does not exist, though in English it is used like, "I am playing;" rt skips over the verb, and simply uses the gerund.

Actually, according to some interpretations, that's a present (or active or imperfective) participle rather than a gerund; it's a verbal adjective rather than a verbal noun. So the "am" in that case is a predicator; "playing" is an adjective derived from the verb "play", an imperfective participle (meaning the playing is ongoing) and an active participle (meaning that it describes the agent or subject of the playing rather than its patient or object). So "I am playing" is like "I am awake" or "I am happy" or "I am healthy" or "I am young".

"To be"(or whatever predicator) + (active/imperfective participle)
happens in a lot of languages;
"To be"(or whatever predicator) + (passive/perfective participle)
can also occur in some of these languages.
Example: "I was played".

But in English the gerund and the active participle look and sound exactly alike.

Aert wrote:
The reflexive suffix can be applied to either the pronoun or the verb; they are translated into the same phrase in English, but the connotation is implied more directly though which word the case is applied to.
Very interesting!

Aert wrote:
Example:

I am washing myself
1SG wash.GER.REFL
V wattoiśit
"I self-wash." or "I am self-washing."

Aert wrote:
I am washing myself
1SG.REFL wash.GER
Vt wattoi
"I-myself wash".

Aert wrote:
The same can be said for the instrumental cases: eg. "I fought with a sharp sword" (either using the sharpness of the blade, or the blade/fighting itself that "I" was fighting with).

The benefactive and malefactive cases can be used in leu of the adjectives they indicate (though more in colloquial language, if there were any native speakers :wink: ) Example difference:

This sucks!
This MAL.EMPH
jen denaas!

This be(cond)-bad.EMPH
jen gecloiyaas!
Interesting; more detail?
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Kiri



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Karānmōlata (not posted yet) is a musical-tone language, meaning that every syllable is sung out in one of the 6 melodic tones, distinguished by diacritics. All the cases are also made by the use of these tones Smile
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Aert



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the information about predicators!!

Let's see, existence and locator predicators are indicated through the verb 'to exist.'
The 'pridicator' predicator you listed sounds pretty much exactly like my be(condition).
For the identifier, do you mean like "I am a human"? using a noun as the adjective? If so, either the existence or condition preverb would be used.
I think that covers them Wink Thanks for the info on French/German Very Happy

Quote:
Actually, according to some interpretations, that's a present (or active or imperfective) participle rather than a gerund; it's a verbal adjective rather than a verbal noun.


Right, sorry. My conlang doesn't distinguis between the gerund and present participle.

Quote:
"I am self-washing."


lol sounds like a piece of technhology or something Wink

Regarding the benefactive/malefactive examples, these cases are usually placed before the verb (after the [pro]noun), as in:

he helped[mal] (but it didn't actually help/it hindered/etc)
PAST.3SG.M MAL help
SOar den fun

In colloquial language, the benefactive and malefactive can indicate the ideas of good, nice, helpful, etc; and bad, annoying, unhelpful, etc, respectively. In this case, it is acting like an adjective (phrase), and so is attached to the be(whatever) preverb, rather than floating before the main verb. Example:

this is (the) best!
this be(cond).BEN.SUPER
Jen genyećyv!

It doesn't differ much from the more proper wording, as the cases are based on the words good/bad, eg:

this is (the) best!
this be(cond)-good.SUPER
Jen g'enyųćyv(oa)!

this is helpful
this be(cond)-help.BEN
Jen gefun'ye

benefactive: nye
good, etc : enyų
vowel contractions result in almost the same thing anyways, but in other examples there will be more pronounced differences.

I can actually see some further contraction from the demonstratives and preverb in extremely colloquial speech:

Jen genyećyv! -> Je'ńyećyv!
Jen g'enyųćyv(oa)! -> Je'ńenyųćyv(oa)
Jen gefun'ye -> Je'ńefun'ye

(ń = ng)

Thanks for your question, that really cleared some stuff up! Does that answer your question?

Quote:
Karānmōlata (not posted yet) is a musical-tone language, meaning that every syllable is sung out in one of the 6 melodic tones, distinguished by diacritics. All the cases are also made by the use of these tones


Sounds interesting! I'd like to hear some of that, or at least learn how it works!
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achemel



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aert wrote:
Kiri wrote:

Karānmōlata (not posted yet) is a musical-tone language, meaning that every syllable is sung out in one of the 6 melodic tones, distinguished by diacritics. All the cases are also made by the use of these tones



Sounds interesting! I'd like to hear some of that, or at least learn how it works!


Same here. (^_^) Would you actually sing it, then? Would it be centered on a particular note? Could you play it instrumentally and it would have meaning without spoken/sung words? How would you pronounce the name?
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I would like to learn:
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aert wrote:
Thanks for the information about predicators!!
Welcome.

Aert wrote:
Let's see, existence and locator predicators are indicated through the verb 'to exist.'
1. How does that verb act as a locator?
2. I think somehow I misled you. A "predicator", an "existence marker", and "locator", are three mutually exclusive uses of the words commonly called "copulas". The "identifier" or "equator" is the fourth such use of copulas. It so happens that in lots of languages the same word has more than one of these uses.

Aert wrote:
The 'pridicator' predicator you listed sounds pretty much exactly like my be(condition).
Exactly.
"Bob(Noun phrase) is(predicator) old(adjective phrase)".

Aert wrote:
For the identifier, do you mean like "I am a human"?
Yes. Or, "Bob(noun) is(equator) president(noun)." What grammars of English for high-school students of English in English-speaking countries used to call "predicate nominatives".
"The president (noun) is (equator) a man (noun)" would use the identifier;
"The president (noun) is (predicator) black (adjective)" would use the predicator.
In English you can't tell the difference, because English's verb "to be" fills three roles (predicator, equator, existence-marker) and partially fills the fourth (locator).

Aert wrote:
using a noun as the adjective?
No; I'd call that "putting the noun in the genitive case". Nor do I mean "using an adjective as a noun". I'm not sure what I'd call that, but that's not what I meant.

Maybe you think "I am a human" is using an adjective as a noun? That "human" is an adjective, and that "I am a human being" would be the full way of saying it, "human" the adjective modifying the noun "being"?
In that case,
"I (noun) am (equator) a human [being] (noun-phrase)" would use the identifier/equator, but
"I (noun) am (predicator) human (adjective)" would use the predicator.
Note that the second clause has no article "a".

Aert wrote:
If so, either the existence or condition preverb would be used.
How? Obviously any of us can tell it's possible, since English does in fact use just the one copular verb for all four uses; but I gather you don't want to use just one copula, and you also don't want to do exactly what English does. So, how does your conlang do this?

Aert wrote:
I think that covers them Wink
I don't want to make you feel like I'm putting any pressure on you, but, IMO I still don't understand and still think I'd need to if I were going to understand your conlang.

Aert wrote:
Thanks for the info on French/German Very Happy
You're welcome, of course. I always feel thankful when people thank me. Smile

Aert wrote:
Right, sorry. My conlang doesn't distinguish between the gerund and present participle.
Well, that makes sense. Neither does English.

Aert wrote:
(more interesting stuff that I didn't want to quote nor comment on other than to say it was interesting.)
That's interesting!
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